🧙Gandalf and Durin's Bane

[Thráin II]

I know the thread title sounds dreadfully boring, but I cannot seem to find anything more fitting at this late hour.

I was re-reading "The Bridge of Kahzad-Dûm" chapter, and it made me ask myself a few questions that I thought I would share with the rest of you, specially as this place seems to be very quiet of late.

I was wondering especially about why Gandalf could not even guess what the foe on the other side of the door was.

Well, well! That's over! ' said the wizard struggling to his feet. `I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed.

Surely there can only be a limited amount of beings in Middle-Earth that could "match" him, especially in spells, and a few of them could have been ruled out easily (Sauron, Saruman, the Nazgûl), so why is it that he cannot even hazard a guess, as shown in the following quote

But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before.

and

What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge.

Gandalf must have been very knowledgeable on the subject of Balrogs, probably more so than any of us ever will, so why could he not recognize it, or even able to guess what it may have been?

Is it perhaps because there was such a large amount of unnamed creatures in the deep places of the earth that guessing was impossible?

In fact, not until Legolas observes

'Ai! ai! ' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '

does Gandalf finally say the words

'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.'

By this point, it would appear that Gandalf indeed had absolutely no clue what the being could be. What do you think it might have been, if not a Balrog?

The question can be easily reversed to ask, "Did the Balrog know who/what it was facing?".

We have no real evidence of the Balrog's thought-process, but I would submit the following two quotes to support a theory I'd been toying with:

`I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.

'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me.

As far as my knowledge of Balrogs extends, their greatest strength lies in physical strength/force of arms and less in spell-casting (admittedly, I may be wrong here), so why would the Balrog choose to use a counter-spell rather than using strength to open the door, which was possible according to Gandalf's own admission?

Could it be that it was because the Balrog perceived a Maia on the other side and knew that breaking his spell through a counter-spell would severely weaken him?

How much could the Balrog have known? Could it have known it was "Gandalf" on the other side, and if so did it know he was the embodiment of Olórin?

A lot of useless questions, I know, and my post could probably have been structured a lot better but perhaps someone can take the time to give it a read nonetheless

 

[Durin's Bane]

Here is what Aragorn says to Gandalf in A Journey in the Dark:

I will follow your lead now- if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

I think both of them suspected a being of terribel power dwelled in the Mines... And here are Gandalf's words a few pages later:

There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the word.

And Gimli's:

And since the dwarves fled, no one dares to seek the shafts and treasures down in the deep places: they are drowned in water- or in a shadow of fear. () ... they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.

So they new there was something dwelling in Moria, but not what it was. Gimli only new it's name, but he didn't guess it was a Balrog.

And wether the Balrog new he was facing a Maia:

With a quick movement Gandalf stepped before the narrow opening of the door and thrust forward his staff. There was a dazzling flash that lit the chamber and the passage outside.

First encounter with the orcs in The Bridge of Khazad-Dum. And:

It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.

So the Balrog new atleast what he was facing...
And I'm quite clueless why Gandalf was clueless...

 

[Gothmog]

Although the Ainur saw much of what was to happen in Arda before it was even created, they did not see all of the story nor were they aware of every detail of that which they did see.

We are in a position of knowing that the Balrog known as "Durin's Bane" fled from the fall of Thangorodrim during the 'War of Wrath' when Morgoth was over-thrown and Beleriand was destroyed. However, even if Olorin was in the battle at Thangorodrim, I doubt that he would have been aware of the Balrog escaping. So, as there had been no report of a Balrog since the War of Wrath, he probably would not have thought of it. There were many other things in Middle-earth.

Also, as Gandalf, he did not have such acute senses. A glimpse by which, as Olorin, he would have instantly recognised was not enough to identify the Balrog to Gandalf.

 

[Thráin II]

Here is what Aragorn says to Gandalf in A Journey in the Dark:
I think both of them suspected a being of terribel power dwelled in the Mines... And here are Gandalf's words a few pages later:

And Gimli's:
So they new there was something dwelling in Moria, but not what it was. Gimli only new it's name, but he didn't guess it was a Balrog.

And wether the Balrog new he was facing a Maia:
First encounter with the orcs in The Bridge of Khazad-Dum. And:
So the Balrog new atleast what he was facing...
And I'm quite clueless why Gandalf was clueless...

Indeed, they were all aware "something" dwelt in Moria.
And the fact that Balrog perceived him and his spell, could I suppose, be interpreted simply that he felt a spell and a being, not even exactly what that being was.

Although the Ainur saw much of what was to happen in Arda before it was even created, they did not see all of the story nor were they aware of every detail of that which they did see.

We are in a position of knowing that the Balrog known as "Durin's Bane" fled from the fall of Thangorodrim during the 'War of Wrath' when Morgoth was over-thrown and Beleriand was destroyed. However, even if Olorin was in the battle at Thangorodrim, I doubt that he would have been aware of the Balrog escaping. So, as there had been no report of a Balrog since the War of Wrath, he probably would not have thought of it. There were many other things in Middle-earth.

Also, as Gandalf, he did not have such acute senses. A glimpse by which, as Olorin, he would have instantly recognised was not enough to identify the Balrog to Gandalf.

This is excellent, I hadn't quite thought of it from this perspective.

I do still wonder, though, what other creatures might have fit the same pattern as the Balrog

 

[Starbrow]

The Watcher in the Water outside of Moria seems to be one such creature that was unknown. Aragorn and Gandalf don't seem to have any idea of such a creature until it attacks the company.

 

[Starflower]

Also, the 'Watchers' at Minas Morgul, they seem to be strange sentient beings that are certainly not known to anyone in the Fellowship or the Alliance.

 

[Gordis]

I wouldn't call the Silent Watchers of M. Morgul and Cirith Ungol "beings" per se. It seems they were stone statues inhabited by evil spirits. I suppose they might be akin to Barrow-wights, where evil spirits animated decaying corpses and bones of long-dead Dunedain.

 

[e.Blackstar]

I think it likely that Gandalf simply didn't consider the possibility of a Balrog, perhaps presuming all of them dead or otherwise not-in-the-mines-of-Moria?

 

[Alcuin]

Galadriel and Celeborn were aware that something awful dwelled in Moria, but they had never identified it; had they known its nature, it is likely they would have discussed this not only with Gandalf but with Elrond as well.

I am in agreement with Gothmog, that Gandalf’s senses incarnate as an old man were not as acute as in his native form.

The nature of the beast had not been previously determined. Recall that Dáin Ironfoot had glimpsed Durin’s Bane after the Battle of Azanulbizar, and warned Thráin that it still awaited him beyond the doors. The Dwarves, aware of “who” it was, were unaware of “what” it was, and this seems to have been true for the Wise, as well.

There seems to have been an ennui that affected most of these folk. The Ship-Kings were adventurers, and there are other travelers mentioned (notably Aragorn), but Gandalf seems to have been the only one of the Wise who consistently scouted about or ventured far from “home,” at least by the end of the Third Age. Saruman had settled down after his journeys, the Blue Wizards were lost, and Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn, and Círdan were all homebodies. Legolas does not seem to have been well-traveled before the Fellowship – he seems never to have been to Lórien, in any event – and the Dúnedain were hemmed into Gondor in the South while barely surviving in the North. The Dwarves traveled, but only, it would seem, from hold to hold or from trading post to trading post. In his Letters, Tolkien once described the Eldar of later years as “embalmers,” and Middle-earth in the late Third Age seems almost “embalmed”: full of uncurious folk minding their own affairs. Gandalf is struggling to keep them “awake,” aware of their peril, and once aware, focused on resolving the problem.

It would also seem that of the Wise, only Gandalf had dared to enter Moria after its fall. Aragorn also had entered, nor does he seems to have recognized what lay there, either because neither he nor Gandalf had encountered the creature, or because Aragorn lacked the experience or proper description to recognize it. (The latter seems the less likely of those two possibilities: Aragorn was nothing if not an excellent observer.)

Had the Ainur realized that a Balrog had escaped Thangorodrim, I imagine they would have hunted it relentlessly. Why Legolas recognized it before Gandalf might be explained by Gandalf’s exhaustion from his confrontation and the injuries he sustained from his fall down the stairs after the roof of the Chamber of Mazarbul collapsed.

In the movies, Saruman is aware of the nature of the Balrog, but I cannot recall any reference in Tolkien’s own work that he knew one of the fallen Maia inhabited Moria: that seems to have been a bit of information of which Sauron alone was aware.

 

[Starbrow]

I would guess that the reason why no one really knew what evil lived in Moria, aside from orcs, is because no one survived an encounter with the Balrog to be able to describe it.

 

[Bucky]

and a few of them could have been ruled out easily (Sauron, Saruman, the Nazgûl), so why is it that he cannot even hazard a guess, as shown in the following quote

Now why would The Nazgul be easily ruled out?
They would seem to me to be the most likely choice at first glance.....
They have already been on Frodo's trail & have had 2 months to re-group after the Ford of Bruinen. They certainly could've picked up the Fellowship's trail by then.

Now, it's pretty certain that none of the Wise know that 'Durin's Bane' is a Balrog. Which of the Wise has seen him before Gandalf? What Elf prior to Legolas? How many Dwarves saw DB except for Dain & lived? Gandalf knows that 'older & fouler things than Orcs' live in the mountains (he later calls them 'nameless things'). Bilbo himself (or Gollum) gave Gandalf a report of this when down here Gollum's lake when lost in the Misty Mountains 80 years earlier. It is likey that since the Dwarves 'delved too deep' for mithril that the Wise could assume Durin's Bane is one of these 'nameless things' that are like the Watcher in the Water', just these older & fouler 'ancient evils' as Tolkien calls them that have existed for Ages in the depths of the earth.

Why anyone, Gandalf included, would perceive through a door that a Balrog was there - he certainly knows it is powerful, doesn't he? - all of which were supposed to be wiped out 6419 years earlier, is beyond me. Let us remember, when Sauron set up camp in the Second Age, that it took over 800 years for Gil-Galad to figure that out:

'Then Meneldur broke the seal & read:

Erenion Gil-Galad son of Fingon (maybe, lol) to Tar-Meneldur of the line of Earendil, greeting:

'Blah, blah, blah......
A new shadow rises in the East. It is no tyranny of evil Men, as your son believes; but a servant of Morgoth is stirring & evil things wake again. Each year it gains strength...'

This is written in S.A. 883.....
So, this is SAURON, much stronger than a Balrog (Tolkien says so in 'Myths Transforned in 'Morgoth's Ring') & it still takes almost 900 years for any Elf to notice there's Morgoth's most powerful servant on the loose & acting as a new Dark Lord, whereas Durin's Bane is hiding in Moria from the Host of the West for 6000 years.

 

[Master of maps]

"As far as my knowledge of Balrogs extends, their greatest strength lies in physical strength/force of arms and less in spell-casting (admittedly, I may be wrong here)"

Indeed you are wrong.
Balrogs are maiar turned evil by morgoth, and if any real change occurred when it comes to thier power, it probibly would have been increased instead of decreased when they became balrogs, because morgoth poured his power into his minions, and thus he became weaker and weaker as his army's grew. But this would mean that the balrog would be just as skilled as gandalf is when it came to spells, as gandalf is also a maiar.

And when you said that saruman could easily have been ruled out, he wasnt as easily ruled out as you may have thought. in the historys of middle earth, the treason of isengard section of this forum, there is a thread that suggests that maybe the balrog could have been saruman.

Though i dont agree with this theory, it nevertheless points out that he wasnt ruled out that easily.

 

[Firawyn]

Also, as Gandalf, he did not have such acute senses.

Yeah, his senses were lacking.

"Oh! Bilbo has the ring of power!" *smacks forehead*

 

[Gothmog]

Yeah, his senses were lacking.

"Oh! Bilbo has the ring of power!" *smacks forehead*

Proof of my point. Had 'Gandalf's' senses been as acute as they would be for 'Olorin' would the One Ring been unrecognised for so long?

 

[Alcuin]

Had 'Gandalf's' senses been as acute as they would be for 'Olorin' would the One Ring been unrecognised for so long?

Think about that for a moment. When Sauron made the One Ring, he clearly put some kind of “protection” mechanism into it: Isildur found it “precious,” Gollum called it (and eventually himself) “My Precious,” Bilbo called it “My Precious,” and Frodo became pretty possessive of it (in fact, it finally possessed him in the Sammath Naur). That might have been incidental to its construction; but I think that it was a safety mechanism, a fall-back insinuated into its manufacture so that, should Sauron be separated from his precious Ring, it would tend to work its way back to him, and in the meantime, it would be guarded by its keeper. Perhaps the Ring also had a means of concealment: it might not “want” to be found unless Sauron was “calling” to it, searching for it, as was the case when poor Déagol fished it out of the shallows of the Gladden. I don’t think the One Ring “wanted” to be recognized by any others except Sauron, and was “hiding” itself at the same time that it was working to return itself to Sauron. (Personally, I think the One Ring had something akin to a sophisticated “program” in it, rather than a distinct personality: in any case, whatever was in it had come from Sauron, and if it had a personality, it must have been Sauron’s own.)

As far as the Balrog goes, however, it did not want to be found! It had wormed its way underneath Khazad-dûm in order to hide from the Army of the Valar in the War of Wrath, and after it killed or drove out the Dwarves, it stayed inside the underground city-state and continued to hide: Celeborn suspected its nature but did not know; and Gandalf, while he and Elrond and the rest of the Wise might have guessed at what “Durin’s Bane” might be, clearly did not know its true nature until he met it in the Second Hall, even after encountering it on the other side of the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul.

Galadriel said that a grey mist surrounded Gandalf, and she was unable to see him or his movements. This was probably a deliberate device of Gandalf’s: Galadriel, his friend and ally, could not see him: neither could his enemies, particularly Sauron. Saruman was able to conceal his nefarious mechanizations from the rest of the Council. Sauron hid himself for millennia, so that none of the Wise was able to determine for certain who he was until Gandalf entered Dol Guldur near the end of the Third Age (where he found Thráin II in some state of dementia).

My point is that Maia seem to have been able to conceal themselves from one another, at least at a distance. Exactly what the Balrog perceived through the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul is not clear, but it and Gandalf “perceived” one another: each was aware that there was a “power” holding onto the other side of the handle he grasped, though Gandalf clearly failed to grasp that the other hand belonged to a fallen Maia: perhaps that was because his judgment was clouded by fear and haste; or perhaps he was simply under the misapprehension that all the Balrogs had been killed or captured during the War of Wrath, and was just not able to piece together at that moment that this is what held the other side of the door.

Which brings up another, similar question. Saruman and Sauron were both aware that a Balrog dwelled in Moria. (Saruman withheld that bit of intelligence from the rest of the White Council, of which he was nominally head, as he did much other information that came into his possession. Exactly what his motive was in this instance might be worthy of discussion.) It is quite possible that, separately, one or the other had visited Moria and perhaps even met the Balrog and conversed with it. In any case, the Balrog clearly knew that there were other Maia roaming about Middle-earth, and it knew something about the Wizards and what they were.

So, when the Balrog perceived Gandalf, even though Gandalf didn’t immediately realize that the thing on the other side of the door was a Balrog – did the Balrog immediately realize the thing on the other side opposing it was a Wizard like Saruman, and hence another Maia?

 

[Illuin]

Well, you have to hand it to some of those Maia; they indeed lend a new meaning to the word "patience". Playing "hide and seek" for; what is it; 5,421 years or so? That is commendable. I would have given up in fifteen minutes .

 

[Ithrynluin]

Saruman and Sauron were both aware that a Balrog dwelled in Moria.

They were?? It's been a long time since I read the books so I might have forgotten some tidbit about Sauron, but Saruman knowing about the Balrog?

In any case, the Balrog clearly knew that there were other Maia roaming about Middle-earth,

Clearly knew?

and it knew something about the Wizards and what they were.

It did?

 

[Illuin]

by Alcuin
Saruman and Sauron were both aware that a Balrog dwelled in Moria.
In any case, the Balrog clearly knew that there were other Maia roaming about Middle-earth, and it knew something about the Wizards and what they were.

I'm with Ithy on this one. I know the Silvan Elves of Lothlorien fled the Balrog; but they did not recognize it as a Balrog; they just described it as a “Nameless Terror”. Since both Sauron and Saruman had messengers in Moria; it’s possible these scouts caught a glimpse of the Balrog and reported it. Even if the messengers didn’t know what it was; if they provided a description, it’s likely Saruman and Sauron would have guessed it was a Balrog.

But this is just speculation. As far as this being definite:

Documentation please?

 

[Alcuin]

I'm with Ithy on this one. ...

But this is just speculation. As far as this being definite:

Documentation please?

<sigh>

Ok, it’s not “clear,” but it’s pretty heavily implied.

The orcs in Moria were placed there by Sauron. The Balrog controlled them within the ruins, no doubt.

The orcs that invaded Lórien – the ones following the Company of the Ring – were lead by Uruks from Isengard. Those Uruks belonged to Saruman. In fact, that’s why Saruman started first in pursuit of the Company, with Sauron in pursuit a day or two later. (I.e., it’s why Merry & Pippin were being hauled off to Isengard instead of Mordor. Didn’t we discuss this in a thread recently? The material on this is in Reader’s Companion, because I cited it in the thread.)

I’ll have to withdraw the statements – not because I don’t believe them, but because I simply do not have time right now to unearth all the citations required to mount any kind of sensible defense other than, “Well, I know I read it somewhere.”

So I’ll back down. (But as soon as I have time … which may be never, the way things are going in the salt mines of Núrnen…)

But … I won’t forget. And you two don’t get off the hook because I don’t have time to do all the documentation this weekend!

 

[Gothmog]

Didn’t we discuss this in a thread recently? The material on this is in Reader’s Companion, because I cited it in the thread.)

So I’ll back down. (But as soon as I have time … which may be never, the way things are going in the salt mines of Núrnen…)

But … I won’t forget. And you two don’t get off the hook because I don’t have time to do all the documentation this weekend!

Don't forget, if you cite material from the Reader's Companion to back your case, Include information on the original Tolkien sources that were used By the Author.