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So why did 🧙Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???
- Thread starter lilhobo
- Start date
Snaga
The Usual Suspect
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2002
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- 2,257
Harad
Do you think that Sauron focused in on one of the Gates of Moria, and kept staring at it relentlessly for days, if not weeks until someone came by?
Just interested because that's how it sounds. Add that to:
- it takes a lot of concentration to keep focused, so no distractions (like running Mordor)
- you can't really delegate the task 'Hey Grishnakh, the Lidless Eye and the Mouth of Sauron are going to the pub, watch the Palantir for us while were out, will you?'
Do you think that Sauron focused in on one of the Gates of Moria, and kept staring at it relentlessly for days, if not weeks until someone came by?
Just interested because that's how it sounds. Add that to:
- it takes a lot of concentration to keep focused, so no distractions (like running Mordor)
- you can't really delegate the task 'Hey Grishnakh, the Lidless Eye and the Mouth of Sauron are going to the pub, watch the Palantir for us while were out, will you?'
Of course Sauron wouldn't say that. Grishnakh couldn't be trusted with a burnt out match.
And Harad, Goodgulf's light is clearly described as being 'half as bright as a dead firefly'. Not the sort of thing that you could pick up in the Palantir. At least, no brighter than the gleam in the Ballhog's eyes.
H
Harad
Guest
Fellows, fellows, let stop bickering, about who killed who. This is supposed to be a happy ocassion.
The Palantir argument was meant to be a contrast between using the Palantir in Moria or using the Palantir in the Gap. Every objection you give to using the Palantir in Moria gets multiplied for using it in the Gap.
The Palantir argument was meant to be a contrast between using the Palantir in Moria or using the Palantir in the Gap. Every objection you give to using the Palantir in Moria gets multiplied for using it in the Gap.
Snaga
The Usual Suspect
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2002
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- 2,257
Fair enough - I just wanted to illustrate that the Palantir wasn't like having a radar on all the time.
Anyway I wanted to look at this from a slightly different perspective. Harad, you like the argument 'JRRT steered them into Moria because it was good for the plot'. On one hand I'm not too keen on that because its not arguing the logic within the book, and on the other hand it suggests JRRT couldn't make a good story about going through the Gap.
On the third hand, it actually is quite true. I'm getting my teeth into some of HoME - in particular Vol 7 Treason of Isengard. I haven't got 1-6. I found 7-9 in a bookshop in Stratford-upon-Avon, and bought them without hesitation. Anyway...
Its clear that Moria was one of the key locations that JRRT wanted to get into the story right from the outset. Its one of the things that, after publication of the Hobbit, readers always wanted to know about. The Fellowship were going through Moria before the Gap existed, before Saruman existed, before Frodo was called Frodo!
Interesting things to note:
- At one stage JRRT envisaged the Balrog to have been sent by Sauron quite recently
- At another point he was to have Gandalf fight a nazgul on the bridge
- In one draft Aragorn was pro- and Gandalf anti-Moria
- The Balrog started quite small (man-high) but got bigger in re-writes
- In one version Legolas takes a hit from an orc arrow as they run to the bridge
- etc etc
Getting into Moria was never an issue. However Tolkien paused for a long time, before writing how they got back out again.
Anyway, that's my way of posting how fascinating these books are. In some parts you get close to the page turner quality of LotR: you know what JRRT will eventually decide on, but you get some magical ideas that he tries out, and then casts aside. (e.g. a precursor of Fatty Bolger gets kidnapped by the Nazgul at Crickhollow, and rescued by Gandalf! Wow!!!)
Anyway I wanted to look at this from a slightly different perspective. Harad, you like the argument 'JRRT steered them into Moria because it was good for the plot'. On one hand I'm not too keen on that because its not arguing the logic within the book, and on the other hand it suggests JRRT couldn't make a good story about going through the Gap.
On the third hand, it actually is quite true. I'm getting my teeth into some of HoME - in particular Vol 7 Treason of Isengard. I haven't got 1-6. I found 7-9 in a bookshop in Stratford-upon-Avon, and bought them without hesitation. Anyway...
Its clear that Moria was one of the key locations that JRRT wanted to get into the story right from the outset. Its one of the things that, after publication of the Hobbit, readers always wanted to know about. The Fellowship were going through Moria before the Gap existed, before Saruman existed, before Frodo was called Frodo!
Interesting things to note:
- At one stage JRRT envisaged the Balrog to have been sent by Sauron quite recently
- At another point he was to have Gandalf fight a nazgul on the bridge
- In one draft Aragorn was pro- and Gandalf anti-Moria
- The Balrog started quite small (man-high) but got bigger in re-writes
- In one version Legolas takes a hit from an orc arrow as they run to the bridge
- etc etc
Getting into Moria was never an issue. However Tolkien paused for a long time, before writing how they got back out again.
Anyway, that's my way of posting how fascinating these books are. In some parts you get close to the page turner quality of LotR: you know what JRRT will eventually decide on, but you get some magical ideas that he tries out, and then casts aside. (e.g. a precursor of Fatty Bolger gets kidnapped by the Nazgul at Crickhollow, and rescued by Gandalf! Wow!!!)
H
Harad
Guest
Hey! Stop lording it over us provincials.
It is great to see the development. I dont know if you got a chance to see my "Original Version of the Hobbit Thread" but the important part is:
http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html
which shows how much Gollum changed in the tailing.
H
Harad
Guest
Sure, but did you get it at Stratford-Upon-the-lahdidah-Avon?
H
Harad
Guest
None of the above. Its sheer envy for someone who can blithely shop on "Stratford-on-the-Avon." I've been at Crouton-on-the-Hudson but its just not the same.
Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn
Formerly Donnie B.
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2002
- Messages
- 123
I'm lucky if I can get to Papa-Gino's-on-the-Food-Court.
M
MarkJ
Guest
First post.
Hello all,
I apologise for carrying on the discussion (ahem), but Im new, so I thought I deserved one crack at it. I'm not sure if the following points have been raised, if so I once again apologise.
1. I always assumed that one of the main disadvantages of the Gap route was not the Gap itself but the miles of open ground the fellowship would have to cover. They have already encountered two sets of spies as far north as Moria, so if one assumes some kind of logical search pattern on Saruman's part surely it is highly likely they would encounter more, and more highly concentrated spies the closer to Orthanc they went.
2. The question is not whether Saruman actually held the gap but whether or not Gandalf judged that he might. I do not agree that Gandalf could have found this out easily. Harad's suggestions were
(a) An eagle: I am not aware of Gandalf being able to summon eagles, but in any case one assumes that the eagle would be even easier to spot that the fellowship, and would then lead the crebain straight back to the company. ( Please no one start a African/European swallow style debate about comparitive air velocities )
(b) Send Aragorn: surely time is a factor, If Saruman' forces are growing by the time Aragorn returned Orthanc would have even more troops at its disposal, and meanwhile the rest of the company are sitting about waiting to be discovered.
3. I see no reason why it is implausible that Saruman would have the man-power to successfully guard the gap. I have absolutely no idea of orc breeding rates, so that is a bit of a moot point. However, I am unclear why the fact he does not attack Boromir leads the conclusion that he could not. Saruman attempts to maintain a friendly front throughout and I dont see why he would tip his hand by attacking a lone horseman, of no import to him.
Right ( gosh this is a long post, hope you will bear with me, nearly done), now for the comparitive risk bit.
Now i am not for a minute suggesting the Fellowship would rather encounter a Balrog than a scout troop of orcs/wargs whatever. However, they were in a situation where any mistake could be one too many. If one orc rode off to raise the alarm, or they were spotted by one crow they wouldnt get far in a flat race, with the nearest sure sactuary Gondor. This would lead to consequences just as dire as meeting a Balrog, in the long run. In Mordor they didnt have to avoid patrols, indeed they may well have dared to hope they were not specifically sought - very unlike the situation with the Rohan route. Even if they were spotted they had the chance of an escape through the tunnels, where it is possible they might lose pursuit and had the sanctuary of Lorien not too far off.
Well i hope that poses some reasonable questions. I look forward to any responses.
Hello all,
I apologise for carrying on the discussion (ahem), but Im new, so I thought I deserved one crack at it. I'm not sure if the following points have been raised, if so I once again apologise.
1. I always assumed that one of the main disadvantages of the Gap route was not the Gap itself but the miles of open ground the fellowship would have to cover. They have already encountered two sets of spies as far north as Moria, so if one assumes some kind of logical search pattern on Saruman's part surely it is highly likely they would encounter more, and more highly concentrated spies the closer to Orthanc they went.
2. The question is not whether Saruman actually held the gap but whether or not Gandalf judged that he might. I do not agree that Gandalf could have found this out easily. Harad's suggestions were
(a) An eagle: I am not aware of Gandalf being able to summon eagles, but in any case one assumes that the eagle would be even easier to spot that the fellowship, and would then lead the crebain straight back to the company. ( Please no one start a African/European swallow style debate about comparitive air velocities )
(b) Send Aragorn: surely time is a factor, If Saruman' forces are growing by the time Aragorn returned Orthanc would have even more troops at its disposal, and meanwhile the rest of the company are sitting about waiting to be discovered.
3. I see no reason why it is implausible that Saruman would have the man-power to successfully guard the gap. I have absolutely no idea of orc breeding rates, so that is a bit of a moot point. However, I am unclear why the fact he does not attack Boromir leads the conclusion that he could not. Saruman attempts to maintain a friendly front throughout and I dont see why he would tip his hand by attacking a lone horseman, of no import to him.
Right ( gosh this is a long post, hope you will bear with me, nearly done), now for the comparitive risk bit.
Now i am not for a minute suggesting the Fellowship would rather encounter a Balrog than a scout troop of orcs/wargs whatever. However, they were in a situation where any mistake could be one too many. If one orc rode off to raise the alarm, or they were spotted by one crow they wouldnt get far in a flat race, with the nearest sure sactuary Gondor. This would lead to consequences just as dire as meeting a Balrog, in the long run. In Mordor they didnt have to avoid patrols, indeed they may well have dared to hope they were not specifically sought - very unlike the situation with the Rohan route. Even if they were spotted they had the chance of an escape through the tunnels, where it is possible they might lose pursuit and had the sanctuary of Lorien not too far off.
Well i hope that poses some reasonable questions. I look forward to any responses.
H
Harad
Guest
Welcome MarkJ and here are "stubborn" responses,
1.
or put another way, those are miles of "open" ground that any search for them would have to cover. Moria had a constricted entrance and exit. Note the fact that the Fellowship was attacked at both ends.
2.
Gandalf gets an Eagle whenever he really needs one. As far as scouting is concerned, the Fellowship did it when they wanted:
3.
If you want to assume that the fact that he did not attack either Gandalf (and why wouldnt he attack Gandalf who had recently escaped from Orthanc?) or Boromir, then the logic seems to be: since he didnt attack them, then he was in control of the pass. Why not assume the opposite, which is not only more likely, but turns out to be true.
Eggzactly. So dont pin yourself down in a single location with constricted access on both ends.
HOWEVER, if Gandalf considered it a NECESSITY to go to Lorien, then Caradhras or Moria were the only ways to go considering that they went south from Rivendell.
1.
or put another way, those are miles of "open" ground that any search for them would have to cover. Moria had a constricted entrance and exit. Note the fact that the Fellowship was attacked at both ends.
2.
Gandalf gets an Eagle whenever he really needs one. As far as scouting is concerned, the Fellowship did it when they wanted:
3.
Is that speaking as someone with experience in stopping 9 stealthy characters from penetrating an open area of foothills at least 42 miles at its narrowest? Consider modern events to see how easy it is to stop a few people from escaping over grounds even with modern surveillance techniques.
If you want to assume that the fact that he did not attack either Gandalf (and why wouldnt he attack Gandalf who had recently escaped from Orthanc?) or Boromir, then the logic seems to be: since he didnt attack them, then he was in control of the pass. Why not assume the opposite, which is not only more likely, but turns out to be true.
Eggzactly. So dont pin yourself down in a single location with constricted access on both ends.
HOWEVER, if Gandalf considered it a NECESSITY to go to Lorien, then Caradhras or Moria were the only ways to go considering that they went south from Rivendell.
M
MarkJ
Guest
Thankyou kindly for the response. I don't consider the reply stubborn and I hope you will not consider me so, for replying in turn. I thought I addressd many of the points you raised in the original but I shall explain more clearly.
I do not, in fact have any experience in detecting travellors, but my point was that I, and I assume you, also have no experience in raising orcs. For all you or I know Saruman had enough orcs, wargs, crows and whatever other unnamed watchers to stand shoulder to shoulder right across the gap. There is no theoretical limit to his man/bird power. Or at least so Gandalf may have feared.
I thought my point about the fact they had already been detected twice, even before they reached Moria, raised big questions about relying on space to protect them.
Gandalf may indeed get an eagle at many opportune times, but, and correct me if I am wrong, this is always by chance. He never actually summons one at will. For one to simply turn up would surely be "cooking the books" as you put it.
The issue with scouting is not that they are opposed to it in principle it is a question of distance and time. Either they would all travel somewhat towards Isengard, then send on Aragon/Legolas. However they would be walking closer to the possible danger in the first place, and would then have to make the same dangerous journey back to where they started, if in fact the gap was guarded. Otherwise they would have to wait in the open near Moria/Carhadras for some considerable time, while someone make the whole journey to the gap alone. During all this time Saruman's forces would be growing, and information would scarcely be current when the scout returned.
By no means was I suggesting the fact that Saruman did not attack Boromir or Gandalf was proof he had troops. Sorry if that wasnt clear but that would be ridiculous. I was merely suggesting that the only explanation for not attacking was not that Saruman couldnt, but it may be that he wouldnt. My explanation for not attacking Boromir is already stated and in the case of Gandalf it may well be that he did not want to risk his main strength when there was no hope of the ring as reward. Also Saruman's evident arrogance might lead him to beleive Gandalf is not as big a threat as the reader does. These are merely plausible possibilities intended to refute your use of these events as proof.
The point I thought I made was that the benefit of Moria was that they were not specifically sought there. The watcher was not known to Gandalf so should not be considered in his reasoning. At the the other "constricted entrance", which you deem so fearful, let us not forget that there was a guard there. However it was dispatched by Aragorn single handed. They encountered no patrols/ a directed guard at the west gate. So it would seem there was no one set in Moria specifically to stop the fellowship. ( ok the watcher was there but if Sauron wanted the ring, he probably doesnt want it at the bottom of another body of water in the belly of a monster). Without pippin's mistake, it is at least plausible that the only trouble they would have encounterd was the weak guard on the east gate.
Finally ( Phew I hear you say ), you make no comment on my point about the nearness of escape. NB This is not the same as saying a visit to Lorien was necessary.
If anything went wrong at the gap, even if only one crow spotted them, they would have to outrun orcs and wargs all the way to Gondor ( they were not sure of Rohan ). There is no way they would ever get away - you must admit that. In Moria things did go as wrong as they could, pretty much, and they still managed to get out.
Hope you reply, and thanks for taking the time.
I do not, in fact have any experience in detecting travellors, but my point was that I, and I assume you, also have no experience in raising orcs. For all you or I know Saruman had enough orcs, wargs, crows and whatever other unnamed watchers to stand shoulder to shoulder right across the gap. There is no theoretical limit to his man/bird power. Or at least so Gandalf may have feared.
I thought my point about the fact they had already been detected twice, even before they reached Moria, raised big questions about relying on space to protect them.
Gandalf may indeed get an eagle at many opportune times, but, and correct me if I am wrong, this is always by chance. He never actually summons one at will. For one to simply turn up would surely be "cooking the books" as you put it.
The issue with scouting is not that they are opposed to it in principle it is a question of distance and time. Either they would all travel somewhat towards Isengard, then send on Aragon/Legolas. However they would be walking closer to the possible danger in the first place, and would then have to make the same dangerous journey back to where they started, if in fact the gap was guarded. Otherwise they would have to wait in the open near Moria/Carhadras for some considerable time, while someone make the whole journey to the gap alone. During all this time Saruman's forces would be growing, and information would scarcely be current when the scout returned.
By no means was I suggesting the fact that Saruman did not attack Boromir or Gandalf was proof he had troops. Sorry if that wasnt clear but that would be ridiculous. I was merely suggesting that the only explanation for not attacking was not that Saruman couldnt, but it may be that he wouldnt. My explanation for not attacking Boromir is already stated and in the case of Gandalf it may well be that he did not want to risk his main strength when there was no hope of the ring as reward. Also Saruman's evident arrogance might lead him to beleive Gandalf is not as big a threat as the reader does. These are merely plausible possibilities intended to refute your use of these events as proof.
The point I thought I made was that the benefit of Moria was that they were not specifically sought there. The watcher was not known to Gandalf so should not be considered in his reasoning. At the the other "constricted entrance", which you deem so fearful, let us not forget that there was a guard there. However it was dispatched by Aragorn single handed. They encountered no patrols/ a directed guard at the west gate. So it would seem there was no one set in Moria specifically to stop the fellowship. ( ok the watcher was there but if Sauron wanted the ring, he probably doesnt want it at the bottom of another body of water in the belly of a monster). Without pippin's mistake, it is at least plausible that the only trouble they would have encounterd was the weak guard on the east gate.
Finally ( Phew I hear you say ), you make no comment on my point about the nearness of escape. NB This is not the same as saying a visit to Lorien was necessary.
If anything went wrong at the gap, even if only one crow spotted them, they would have to outrun orcs and wargs all the way to Gondor ( they were not sure of Rohan ). There is no way they would ever get away - you must admit that. In Moria things did go as wrong as they could, pretty much, and they still managed to get out.
Hope you reply, and thanks for taking the time.
H
Harad
Guest
No problem.
I dont think we will achieve any convergence, but do we ever?
Qrcs are not test tube babies. Saruman (or Suaron) could not create life only twist it. The armies of both Saruman (and Sauron) were limited in size by natural processes. If what you say is true then Sauron would had 600 years to "fill" Moria to overflowing with Orcs. Sauron had a huge headstart on Saruman. The later had his Silver Medal winning Uruk-hai, but how many? I estimated that it would take tens of thousands of orcs to "close" the Gap and that was a major army in those days. Saruman first of all did not close the Gap. Second of all he was preparing for war with Rohan so would not have under any reasonable circumstances put a whole army on the sentry duty with the army of his enemy in the other direction.
There is no evidence that they were detected even once. If they were, how foolish to enter Moria, a known realm of their enemies (forget Balin, he was "silent" for 25 years).
Aragorn was the preeminent tracker/scout in ME. Legolas was no slouch (ok he was a slouch...no matter). JRRT could shirley have written a good story of those two guys leading the Fellowship thru the Gap if he wanted to.
We are talking about hours or 1-2 days. The whole trip would take two weeks. Saruman did not attack at the Fords of Isen for 2 months.
That people were able to use the Gap safely is not proof that they could again. It is certainly not proof of the converse. One is making decisions based upon the preponderance of evidence and potential threats. That the Gap was used safely within the last 2 months, I would put on the plus side. People have argued that because more than 30 years before, Gandalf and Aragorn had traveresed Moria, that was a reason for them to traverse Moria again. I know you havent used that argument, YET, but I remember it well.
In Moria it doesnt matter what the threat is. What matters is that all a threat has to do is go to one or 2 predetermined points and the threat is GUARANTEED to intercept the Fellowship. The Watcher did this at the entrance--and remember the Watcher went for Frodo. Durin's Bane did this at the exit.
I dont buy this at all. They could not know what was waiting for them at the exit to Moria. Indeed Haldir told them that a "great force" of Orcs went North "many days" before they reached Lorien. That force could easily have been a welcoming committee as they left Moria. On the other side the party discounts the loyalty of Rohan. Yet we know that historically they have stood by Gondor and the West. Futhermore we know that in the field both Eomer and Theodred are loyal and they are who counts.
JRRT stacked the book against the Gap because for valid literary reasons he wanted to explore Moria, the only "dungeon" in his fantasy adventure. But you have not convinced me, with the evidence from the book, that this decision was based upon logic..again unless you invoke the principle that Lorien was a necessity. I note that you have eschewed that escape clause. God bless you.
I dont think we will achieve any convergence, but do we ever?
Qrcs are not test tube babies. Saruman (or Suaron) could not create life only twist it. The armies of both Saruman (and Sauron) were limited in size by natural processes. If what you say is true then Sauron would had 600 years to "fill" Moria to overflowing with Orcs. Sauron had a huge headstart on Saruman. The later had his Silver Medal winning Uruk-hai, but how many? I estimated that it would take tens of thousands of orcs to "close" the Gap and that was a major army in those days. Saruman first of all did not close the Gap. Second of all he was preparing for war with Rohan so would not have under any reasonable circumstances put a whole army on the sentry duty with the army of his enemy in the other direction.
There is no evidence that they were detected even once. If they were, how foolish to enter Moria, a known realm of their enemies (forget Balin, he was "silent" for 25 years).
Aragorn was the preeminent tracker/scout in ME. Legolas was no slouch (ok he was a slouch...no matter). JRRT could shirley have written a good story of those two guys leading the Fellowship thru the Gap if he wanted to.
We are talking about hours or 1-2 days. The whole trip would take two weeks. Saruman did not attack at the Fords of Isen for 2 months.
That people were able to use the Gap safely is not proof that they could again. It is certainly not proof of the converse. One is making decisions based upon the preponderance of evidence and potential threats. That the Gap was used safely within the last 2 months, I would put on the plus side. People have argued that because more than 30 years before, Gandalf and Aragorn had traveresed Moria, that was a reason for them to traverse Moria again. I know you havent used that argument, YET, but I remember it well.
In Moria it doesnt matter what the threat is. What matters is that all a threat has to do is go to one or 2 predetermined points and the threat is GUARANTEED to intercept the Fellowship. The Watcher did this at the entrance--and remember the Watcher went for Frodo. Durin's Bane did this at the exit.
I dont buy this at all. They could not know what was waiting for them at the exit to Moria. Indeed Haldir told them that a "great force" of Orcs went North "many days" before they reached Lorien. That force could easily have been a welcoming committee as they left Moria. On the other side the party discounts the loyalty of Rohan. Yet we know that historically they have stood by Gondor and the West. Futhermore we know that in the field both Eomer and Theodred are loyal and they are who counts.
JRRT stacked the book against the Gap because for valid literary reasons he wanted to explore Moria, the only "dungeon" in his fantasy adventure. But you have not convinced me, with the evidence from the book, that this decision was based upon logic..again unless you invoke the principle that Lorien was a necessity. I note that you have eschewed that escape clause. God bless you.
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