So why did 🧙Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???

[ReadWryt]

Ok. lets just get something straight around here about this "Personal Attack" thing. Nobody is permitted to "Counter Attack" even if under personal attack. I thought I made that clear the first 20 times I said it but then, I'm often presuming stupidly.

As for what constitutes a personal attack, and I really am getting tired of all this crap as it detracts from the purpose of the Forum, it is as the Webmaster defined to me yesterday, "When they attack a person, that's a personal attack...not when they attack a post.". This is his policy on his forum. You can refute the deifinition of "Personal Attack" and drag out any authorative text you wish...you can even assume that you know better what the rules around here are then the Webmaster for all I care, but that is the rule and there is no reason to take up any problem you have with it outside of writing to him directly, and that is most likely an argument that would be short and unfruitful for any attempting it.

Now go play...

 

[Harad]

Kwl...
Then I can say that your post is mindless drivel.
As far as you yourself are concerned...I have no comment.

 

[Snaga]

Harad

You didn't miss my post on how Saruman could close the gap, you responded at the time. Trust me on that. RW zapped it, so it was clearly on the wrong side of the Dark/Light duality that was Harad the Grey!

Don't worry, Gandalf couldn't even remember his name when he came back. Post-resurrection amnesia is quite normal.

 

[Grond]

I'll try this again. I originally posted this on the wrong thread (I feel like an idiot) but will try it here. Please let me know if I'm on the wrong thread again.

There have been several arguments made against the Mines of Moria and for the Gap of Rohan. The point I brought up was that the Gap is very narrow where it meets the River Isen. The map shows that as the Fellowship headed South, they would be blocked by the River Isen running West to East. The possibility of swimming it would surely have been considered by Aragorn, Gandalf and Boromir, but as it appears that only one of the Hobbits swam (possibly Pippin?) that would have created a problem. The narrow passage would have been much easier to seal against the Fellowship and would have also forced them to come that much closer to Isengard, which both Gandalf and Aragorn wanted to avoid at all costs.

I just thought this should be brought up since elsewhere in the thread reference was made to the Gap being wider than 50 miles. I doubt their options for safe passage were anywhere near 50 miles across, but I could be wrong.

 

[Snaga]

Swimming hobbits

I think Merry is the most likely swimmer. The Brandybucks, living by the Baranduin, were used to using boats. Not sure about Pippin or Frodo, but Sam definitely can't swim. Hence the need to be pulled out of the Anduin by Frodo.

 

[Snaga]

Squeeky you are small but helpful. That is interesting. Does anyone know when Gandalf and Aragorn's visits would have been in relation to that? I don't remember reading anything more than what is in FotR (which is very vague).

(PS Bombadillo - yes delete it please. Thanks)

 

[Harad]

Thanks squeek,

But I have some even more important dates to post. These are ESSENTIAL TO BE IGNORED if you want to maintain your opinions about Moria vs the Gap. Be warned:

All dates from 3018

July 4: Boromir sets out from Minas Tirith
July 10: Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc
Septemeber 18: Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen
September 24: Gandalf crosses the Isen.
December 25: The Company...leaves Rivendell

So Gandalf must figure that between September 24 and December 25 Saruman has made the Gap of Rohan impregnable, while at the same time preparing for war against Rohan. Also on Feb 26, 3019 Saruman's forces are in Parth Galen. What a guy!

Also see
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2302

 

[Snaga]

Harad you are big and helpful

Not though for making me doubt my opinion. You remind us all that Gandalf had two months of close observation of the strength of Isengard to base his opinions of the capabilities of Saruman. Given this he is hardly likely to have got it wrong is he?

Saruman of course does not close the Gap against lone travellers, or servants of Sauron who he pretends to serve, months before the formation of the Fellowship. But when his spies in Bree tell him that the ring is heading to Rivendell he lays his plan. His orcs are ready, so are his crebain. He has two months to spin a web to ensure that nothing passes through unnoticed from the north.

 

[Snaga]

Thanks Squeaky. I've got a nice piece of Stilton waiting for you

Gandalf entered Moria looking for Thrain - so between 2841 and 2850.

 

[Harad]

hardly likely to have got it wrong is he?

Absolutely not. Right after this study, he crossed the Gap without opposition, being both an enemy of Saruman and of Sauron.

 

[lilhobo]

hmmm, this thread is getting more pedantic the longer it goes on,

gandalf was on shadowfax, not even the nine can outride him. Saruman does not even need orc patrols in rohan , all he needs are spies and scouts to spot the nine "wallkers" and his orcs would outrun them

 

[Harad]

1. the crebain did not spot them
2. no one reports any orcs at the gap
3. put frodo on shadowfax and you solved the problem
4. if you want a "technical" thread go to uruks and uruk-hais

it not as if this thread wasnt borrowed anyway...

 

[lilhobo]

yeah why not put frodo and Arwen on shadowfax and fly all the way to morrrdor

and if i wanted a more technical thread i go answer the "which beard is the best" thread

 

[Snaga]

You don't know whether or not the Crebain spotted them. Anyway the Wargs certainly did. After the whole Caradhras episode their cover was well and truly blown.

Saruman hadn't blocked the Gap at the time Gandalf/Boromir went through but he had the orcs to do it. Maybe he never did block the Gap. For all I know his orcs could have been selling hotdogs to passing travellers from a van by the Fords to finance his purchases of Longbottom Leaf. But he COULD block the Gap, and Gandalf KNEW he could block the Gap.

Anyway Lilhobo there are many other threads so you don't have to post to this one just because you started it. Harad and I are having a nice friendly, nitpicking, pedantic and never-ending debate on this one, as is our right! Don't try and spoil our fun please!!!

 

[Harad]

He didnt really start the thread. Eonwe did, but the original was lost when I was dragged into the chasm.

I am certainly on the verge of stopping. I have gievn proof with no contradiction yet that Rohan held the Gap the whole time. For sure, JRRT can tell Gandalf to think whatever. He can tell Gandalf to think that Sauron has spies in their Longbottom, so he has to smoke in the dark. That doesnt make it logical.

Gandalf was not a complete boob. He could gather intelligence about the Gap, much easier than he could about Moria. Instead of "knowing Saruman COULD block the Gap" he could "know Sauron COULD block Moria." And whose wargs were they anyway? They seem to be part of Sauron's spy apparatus, not Saruman's.

"Listen Hound of Sauron!," he cried. "Gandalf is here. Fly if you value your foul skin."

Not only does Gandalf give away his identity, he also infers that these are spies of Sauron. Yet he chooses the path thru Moria, Sauron's mountain getaway.

Aragorn: "...Holliin is no longer wholesome for us: It is being watched" Gandalf: "And in that case so is Redhorn Gate..."

And yet, they go that way, too.

The only way they dont go is the Gap, and thats the only way that was safe.

 

[Snaga]

*Yawn* OK then lets call it quits for now. I could debate on - e.g. Moria is not 'Sauron's mountain getaway' but perhaps turning this thread into a war of attrition is not a good way to resolve this. I propose a truce.

 

[Harad]

* Burp * Whatever. I could debate myself but I would go blind.

2480-sauron begins to people moria with his creatures

Moria is not 'Sauron's mountain getaway'

 

[Grond]

BTW, everyone has been removed from my ignore list and I have reread this thread in its entirety. I will continue the debate with Harad (it is entirely too early to give up hope that you and I may convince him VoK).

Harad, the Gap of Rohan was but twenty miles across. (From Unfinished Tales, The Battles of the Fords of Isen). It is also clear from the text that the Fords of Isen were most certainly watched if not outright contested from the time of Gandalf's escape. I will give a detailed account of this later this week and present my evidence. It is also apparent that he who contols the Fords contols the Gap.

I will give you that the twenty miles of the Gap are wider than the narrow exit of Moria. That would make the Gap the expected choice of the party and hence the much more probable choice for the party to take. That very statement makes the Moria choice a logical one.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that Gandalf knowingly or even subconciously felt the desire to take the Moria route because of the I've got to get Elevated to White Status syndrome. He was too surprised at confronting an unknown (spell/counter-spell) in the Chamber of Mazarbul and his cold realization of what he faced at the bridge ("A Balrog...now I understand...what an evil fortune.... and I am already weary!") I think he felt the Gap was watched, expected and entirely too close to Isengard.

The Mines held the remote (note remote) possibility that Balin still lived, it was unexpected, hopefully unwatched (no orcs when Gandalf passed through before) and no one had seen Durin's Bane since Dain Ironfoot apparently saw it during the War of Dwarves and Orcs. Interestingly, no one apparently suspected that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. One can only assume that everyone thought it was a great troll or some other evil like the watcher. Who knows??? But most importantly, and something that continues to appear ignored, both Gandalf and Aragorn had been through Moria before. And, yes, Aragorn had evil memories.

It appears that Gandalf had made up his mind to take this route or the Caradhras route while in Imladris. The only explanation for this would have been for his desire to go to Lorien. Nothing else makes sense. It should be noted that this adds to the logic of taking the Moria route and doesn't detract from it. Gandalf felt the Fellowship would need a break by then and was sure that Galadriel would be able to protect and advise.

Was the Gap of Rohan more logical? Maybe, but certainly closer to Saruman. Was the Moria route less logical? Probably not, but certainly more dangerous, but with the higher reward of getting counsel from Galadriel and Celeborn and a rest in Lorien.

One can debate all day about the choices of the parties. I agree that some choices appear bad, some good, some seemingly illogical and others totally logical. That is what makes it a story. We can't reflect them in any real and logical light because they are FICTION. The author's mind and dream. It's the best book I've ever read. Apparently it isn't everyone of this forum's favorite. That's what the world and this forum is all about. People with different opinions.

 

[Harad]

The Fords of Isen have the following dates associated with them:

Sept 24, 3018: Gandalf passes them without opposition going North.
Feb 25, 3019: Theodred falls at the First Battle of the Fords of the Isen.

from Unfinished Tales, the Battles of the Fords of the Isen:

Only here, south of Isengard, was it possilble for large forces, expecially those heavily armed or mounted, to cross the river.

Already this doesnt apply to the Fellowship...but lets proceed. I also dont find "20 miles" as the size of the Gap. My map's scale shows something like 70 miles.

The story does reinforce my contention that the Fords were either uncontrolled or controlled by Rohan. The army of Saruman comes unexpectedly from Isengard. Theodred "descried other forces hasting to the Fords, though their strength could not be guessed. He at once ordered a retreat." And "when Theodred gained the Fords the day was waning." The implication is not that Theodred fought his way to the Fords, but that he retreated to the Fords ahead of the enemy.

It all is moot since nobody, except me, cares that the Fords were not held by Saruman. The new argument is that "Gandalf thought the Fords were held by Saruman."

So if you believe that:

1. Gandalf thought Moria was ok because Balin was healthy but decided to take a 25 year break in communications, Sauron's populating Moria with his creatures starting 600 years before was an exaggeration, and Durin's Bane was a myth;

and

2. Gandalf was too lazy or unresourceful to check what he himself saw firsthand two months earlier (and 2 months after his imprisonment at Orthanc) and Boromir knew: that the Fords were not controlled by Saruman;

then, of course it full speed ahead into Moria.

Once again, if Lorien is NECESSARY then they have to go thru Moria to get there. And once again, its a better story to go thru Moria. That's not what I am discussing.

 

[lilhobo]

yeap, you are so perfectly coorect about boromir, thats why boromir rode up the theodred at the ford of isen and told him to come to the council of elrond once hes had some KFOs, Kentucky fried Owcs