So why did 🧙Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???

[Grond]

And once again Harad, all you've done is given a few meager examples of why the Fords may have appeared more enticing a trip than the Mines of Moria. You have totally failed to respond to my post's logical evaluation of the decision and you have simply restated the same thing you've been saying for the last twenty or so posts.

One last time.... Gandalf had passed over the Fords on 09/24 on Shadowfax and also knew that Saruman would be even more vigilant since Gandalf's escape. He also had seen a good portion of the size of Saruman's force while he was held captive. He had surmised (see Chapter The White Rider in TT) that Saruman would be at war or approaching war with Rohan and the area of the Gap would be a hotbed of activity. I still am not arguing that the Gap would not have been a logical path; hence, making Moria a less logical path and thus, more unexpected, and thus more preferred. Why don't you take on my last post topic by topic and see if you can find any holes.

As for the width of the Gap, try looking in the index of UT and it gives it to you there. As I stated previously, the Gap is narrowed considerably when one takes the Fords of Isen into account and would be less even than the 20 miles in the index. As far as the River Isen being no problem for a party of 8, that is mere speculation on your part. Could this simply be a case of logic only applying where Harad wants it to apply? Take a stab at it. I've never claimed to be perfect.... Heck, I ain't even claimed to be right in this case.... but, at the least I am open minded. Now come on Harad, have a go at it and see where the holes are.

 

[DreamingDragon]

Didn't Gandalf leave the decision up to the RingBearer? Not a good idea if you ask me........ but here's a thought for the day...if they HADN'T gone the Moria, and the Balrog not been ****** off and dragged him into the bowels of hell, would Gandalf still be grey???


think about it...talk amongst yourselves......

by the way, I'm new to this forum. Pleased to meet you all.



Edit: Foul language, poorly camouflaged, totally edited.

 

[Harad]

I dont believe your post deserves any more comment--if you examine my initial response, it responds to the small number of new issues you raise. Nevertheless, I will take the time to do what you ask. First I looked in the UT index and still do not find "20 miles."

It is also clear from the text that the Fords of >Isen were most certainly watched if not outright
>contested from the time of Gandalf's escape. I

Unproveable, and probably wrong considering Gandalf, Boromir, and Theodred (ignored posts above). Gandalf after 2 months of imprisonment in Orthanc, rides across the Fords without any reported difficulty on Sept 24.

Boromir left Minas Tirith on July 4 (independence day?) and traveled 110 days to Rivendell, thus arriving about Oct 22. When did Boromir cross the Isen? The Fellowship took 14 days from Rivendell to Hollin. Its probably twice as far, but Boromir could travel faster than a party with hobbits, so I reckon that Boromir crossed the Isen AFTER Gandalf, another piece of evidence that Gandalf ignored.

>I will give you that the twenty miles of the Gap >are wider than the narrow exit of Moria. That

Nice of you to admit that 20 miles (I still say 70 miles) is larger than 5 feet.

> Gap the expected choice of the party and hence >the much more probable choice for the party to >take. That very statement makes the Moria choice >a logical one.

Here we go again. The incredible reasoning that Moria was less logical, hence the right path, and in other places, more logical, hence the right path. Seldom do I see such confusion in the same argument. Congrats.

> I also don't subscribe to the theory that >Gandalf knowingly or even subconciously felt the

Thank you for this.

> The Mines held the remote (note remote) >possibility that Balin still lived, it was

Completely discountable by all except the terminally optimistic Gimli. Not a word from Balin for 25 years. BTW even Gimli says at the CoE:

"..no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dum for many lives of kings, save Thror only, and he perished. At last however, Balin listened to whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dain did not give leave willingly...For a while we had news and it seemed good...Then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since."

Seems rather cheerful, don't it?

>Gandalf passed through before) and no one had >seen Durin's Bane since Dain

Its pretty clear that Balin's folk saw Durin's Bane, but they werent talking.

>Interestingly, no one >apparently suspected
> that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. One can only
>assume that everyone thought it was a great troll

How likely that a great troll wiped out a dwarf kingdom? JRRT didnt allow Gandalf to use normal reasoning power here. Furthermore, Balin's likely demise demonstrated that whatever it was, "its back." However Gandalf was "instructed" by JRRT to ignore this.

>Aragorn had been through Moria before. And, yes, >Aragorn had evil memories.

By my reckoning Aragorn had been thru Moria 9 years before Balin entered, or 34 years before. As for Gandalf, I dont know but it also had to be more than 25 years before. In both of their cases they knew something was bad there, and their journeys were alone (?). And MOST IMPORTANTLY they did not have the Ring with them and Sauron on the hunt. Sauron began populating Moria with his creatures 600 YEARS before, so one could anticipate trouble, having just barely escaped Sauron's clutches outside of Rivendell.

> only explanation for this would have been for >his desire to go to Lorien. Nothing else makes >sense. It should

As I said--my posts are the ones that are ignored-- if reaching Lorien is a NECESSITY, then Moria is required, regardless of all its drawbacks.

> Was the Gap of Rohan more logical? Maybe, but >certainly closer to Saruman. Was the Moria route >less logical? Probably not, but certainly more

How can I possibly respond to such a mishmash? These sentences are self-contradictory.

>dangerous, but with the higher reward of getting >counsel from Galadriel and

Again and again and again: Lorien is not an issue in this disscussion. This disscussion is only about the relative merits/dangers of Moria vs. the Gap. I concede that only thru Moria can you get to Lorien. But Gandalf does not reveal Lorien to be a necessity in his plan.

Examine the concept of advanced scouting. Gandalf thought (ignoring all evidence) that the Fords might be held. He could send Aragorn and Legolas as advance scouts in the area. Or how about an Eagle? His scout would tell him that the Fords were not held. Then he could lead the Fellowship via the Fords just as he alone had done 2 months previously. Getting thru Rohan itself was no problem. Ugluk and his lads did it, and others argue, many more Orcs under the "watchful" eyes of Theodred and Eomer.

So you have it:

1. Moria constricted--populated by Orcs and Durin's Bane that had certainly wiped out Balin.

2. The Gap--wolves, crebain, and Saruman, but a MUCH larger area, at worst contested, and with a friendly force, the Rohirrim (again ignored by Gandalf).


As an aid in further discussion:

Please decide once and for all, is Moria less logical or more logical? Then stick to that decision.

Let me help:

1. You can say its less logical, and thus it would fool the bad guys--but then you would agree with my argument.

Or,

2. You could say it was more logical. But then you cant use the argument that it would fool the bad guys anymore.

Get it?

 

[lilhobo]

Originally posted by Harad

As an aid in further discussion:

Please decide once and for all, is Moria less logical or more logical? Then stick to that decision.

Let me help:

1. You can say its less logical, and thus it would fool the bad guys--but then you would agree with my argument.

Or,

2. You could say it was more logical. But then you cant use the argument that it would fool the bad guys anymore.

Get it?

harad, i havent bothered to read all this thread but i am gonna reason with u for the last time

1. the constriction in Moria is whooohooo the Bridge of Khazad-dum NOT exits and entrances (its NOT written but you can assume there are many of them) If the dwarves had held that, then they would have survived (go find the quotes i cant be bothered

2. secondly, rohan is not trusted by the council, since they have NO representatives at the council of elrond

3. NO one has made the arguement that gandlaf the the council used ILLOGIC to fool saruman and sauron

4. everyone (i hope) has used the LOGIC gandalf used that Saruman is a mighty wizard who is eyeing the Ring and would know his land inside out, WITHOUT having to post an orc at every square inch of the Isengard and rohan

PS. although sending a few hobbits on this mission is pretty illogical

 

[Grond]

Well Harad!!! I finally get it!!! What a total crock of crap I and 90 million other Tolkien fans have been reading for the last fifty odd years. The entire logic of going through Moria is indefensible and downright wrong. The Gap of Rohan makes so much more sense that I can't believe anyone would read the LotR drivel and like or believe a single word of it. The illogic of Frodo at Amon Hen, the stupidity of allying one's self with a known enemy and covetor of the Ring (Gollum). The craziness of an entire forest and it tree herds standing up for good after countless years of silence. The absence of logic pervades the works. My God... how could I have been so blind???

It could have been so much better had JRRT simply followed the logic of Harad and infused some sense into the works. What a stupid, asinine work. I'm throwing all my copies away.

 

[Aldanil]

As Emerson said in that letter to Whitman

"I Greet You at the Beginning of a Great Career" and bid congratulations on thy move to Moderation, O Mighty Mace of Morgoth! Or is that Moderatorism, perhaps, sprung forth by the bayou from the dread calm of thy deep reading, O Baleful Banger of Bauglir? I think it grand, Grond, that thus you should ascend to administrative office!


(as just another heedless leaf on the Tree of our Forum, I'm sorry for having missed the chance in the most recent election to add my vote to your victorious margin of elevation)



And, more to the thread-point at hand, I must of course concur with your wise remark on the woeful shortsightedness of us many millions of readers this half century on. Apparently, if we can just prevail upon the Grey Pilgrim himself to apologize for his obfuscation, cough it up personally and come clean at last that the real plan was leading to Lothlorien all along, then we can finally go on, go proudly now and openly on, go on down into Moria, and our dogged and doughty logician dear South may return in peace to those sun-baked sand-dunes of his far desert home, where wisdom shimmers like the promise of a distant oasis, and the hot sun of Harad burns the seeker quite blind. Until the day of that longed-for departure's arrival, I dolefully deem, all we hapless readers can hope to hear is the empty wind whistle through the Gap of Rohan...

 

[lilhobo]

oh so if you can cause ruckus on the forum, offside the greatest poster, bellitle the greatest film and Oscar elect director,

only then can you receive the great honour of being a moderator

 

[Talierin]

No, it's because he came in third in the Moderator Election.

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by lilhobo
oh so if you can cause ruckus on the forum, offside the greatest poster, bellitle the greatest film and Oscar elect director,

only then can you receive the great honour of being a moderator

I've never belittled the film or it's director. I've simply said it could have been better.

 

[Aldanil]

Though I can't claim to match the scorn-free standard of that first sentence, Hammer your honor, I have tried to say just the same as your second, if not always so simply.

 

[Grond]

lilhobo, I forgot to include in my response to you that evil hammers are supposed to cause a ruckus in the forum. As for offsiding anyone, all I did was say "hut hut...... hut...hut". It was a quick count and he took himself offsides.

(To any of my friends who don't know American Football, PM me and I'll explain offsides to you.)

 

[Harad]

I guess its a shame that my posts are uninterpretable by some. There is a set of plusses and minuses for any particular path that Gandalf might choose. Two good reasons for choosing Moria are to get to Lorien and to make it a better story.

To motivate this choice, the book is cooked. I just cant agree that Orcs in a cave are any better than wolves in a gap, Durin's Bane is better than Saruman.

This could be my tagline: if anybody who stubbornly adheres to their opinion accuses me of being stubborn, then...

 

[Grond]

Harad, a few moons ago on a similar thread now residing in a galaxy far, far away, I stated that the Gap of Rohan would have been a logical choice for the Fellowship to have travelled. I also stated that I felt JRRT would have written just as great a story routing the Fellowship through the Gap. You could have introduced conflict with the Dunlenders and fought packs of ravening wolves. JRRT could have had the Fellowship fight in the Battle of the Fords of Isen and rescue Theodred. There is no doubt that could have been done.

Unfortunately, that is not the route the author had the Fellowship take and all your logic about the stupidity or lack of logic of taking Moria will never change the direction of the book. It happened that way.

The Gap would have been a great choice!!

 

[Aldanil]

He speaks with the glad even-handedness of a born Moderator, our Mace!

 

[JeffF.]

Response from another perspective

My previous post on this subject was from the point of view of Gandalph and what he knew about the enemy situation, terrain and friendly situation at the time he made his decision. It was basically a military analysis of his decision.

This is another view. In my opinion Gandalph did not really have a 'plan' rather he was trusting in instinct and fate. He foresaw that Frodo might find help in unknown ways along his quest, as he did from Gollum and Faramir. Gandalph chose the shortest route and one where he could gain the best assistance.

Hindsight tells us that the Fellowship sojourn in Lothlorien was key to the success of the quest. Without Lembas, Elven cloaks, elven rope, and very importantly Galadriel's light Frodo and Sam would not have made their journey thru Mordor.

The route thru Rohan and Gondor offered no such similar items of similar importance. In fact it was liable to men being tempted by the Ring whose resistance to temptation would be no greater than Boromir's.

Though Gandalph probably didn't know specifically about the items Galadriel would bestow he probably had some idea that her powers would be useful. His route was probably chosen by fate, by the powers of the West and not by some analysis of the pros and cons of each course of action.

 

[Harad]

There is no question that the Lorien gifts were crucial for many parts of the rest of the story. If part of Gandalf's gift of leadership was to intuit the future to that extent, then he could choose to risk a more dangerous path thru Moria to reap those rewards. That is what I believe he did.

On a sidelight, having just viewed the movie again, it was interesting how many times Boromir repeats his advice to use the Gap. This is especially so since to the movie audience the Gap doesnt have any particular meaning. Even at the last when they enter Moria and see that it is in rather worse shape than Gimli's optimistic prediction, they appear to be headed to the Gap before the Watcher in the Water intervenes. Why would PJ want to include this nifty idea? Made me sit up and take notice.

 

[Snaga]

I think PJ thought that having them walk into Moria, see a few bodies and turn back was a way to increase the fear factor. I.E. convince the audience that Moria was worse than the Gap. (Is he a friend of yours?!!) This in turn prepares the audience for the perils to come... i.e. it builds suspense.

In the book JRRT does this by emphasising the pitch black of the darkness, and the yawning chasms they had to jump across, and by spending a whole chapter on 'the Journey in the Dark'.

 

[Brown Ribbon]

Couple of points....

Firstly, from Unfinished Tales, The Quest of Erebor, Gandalf talks about Sauron taking shape in Mordor before he had chance to attack Lorien and Rivendell;

'Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped if there had been no Lorien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor.'


I think this shows us that Gandalf always wanted to to take the Fellowship through Lorien, as Harad guesses.

They were in danger as soon as they left Rivendell, wherever they went they were in danger. The land was empty (Enedwaith), openly hostile (Isengard/Dunland) or unknown (Rohan). Far better to head to somewhere openly friendly with the cause. Take stock from there, then go on.
Boromir was adamant about the Gap of Rohan becuase he never saw Lorien as an ally, rather some witch realm to be feared.

Another quote, again from UT ' The Palantiri' shows why Moria was such an attraction. Concerning the power and restrictions of the seeing stones, it goes......'they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light.'

Now Gandalf is very concerned with secrecy on the road, he is always aware that they can be seen, and does his best not to attract attention. Whilst choosing the routes, he would have taken both Saruman and Sauron into account. On one hand, the Misty Mountains was populated with Sauron's servants, but if they went through the Gap of Rohan they risked being caught on the other horn of the dilemma.
Gandalf seemed genuinely surprised to find that Saruman posessed the Orthanc Stone, but he surely knew that the Ithil Stone was in the hands of Sauron. UT hints as much.
If Moria could provide them with absolute secrecy from these stones (seeing as they could make nothing out in the dark) then that's another point in favour of the mines!

Thirdly, Unfinished Tales cites the presence of Sauron's servants in Moria as being 'not particularly numerous', giving the example of how Gollum was able to live undetected for a long time whilst being almost as wanted at the Barad Dur as the Bagginssssess.

Sorry if this is a bit wordy by the way. I just think that there was more to choosing Moria than a hope that Balin would be in with the kettle on and a nice seedcake cooling on the windowsill

 

[Harad]

Oh boy. My favorite thread again!

I agree with BR up to the point. Then, I am amazed that the same quote can be interpreted in opposite ways:

they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light.

The Fellowship needed light to find their way thru Moria, and used light, provided by Gandalf or torches, or in one case sunlight thru an opening in the chamber. This is precisely what the Palantir needed to see INSIDE Moria.

Furthermore, since the Palantir were not a synoptic (wide-field) viewing device but could be used to focus in on a particular spot, Moria was a FAR better target than the wide open spaces of the Gap of Rohan to make use of the Palantir, e.g. focus the Palantir on the either of the doors of Moria and wait for a party carrying a torch to appear.

 

[Brown Ribbon]

they were guided by a faint light from Gandalf's staff, which sounds to me to be about as candescant as a maglite. I don't think they would have been particualarly noticeable. Certainly it would have been difficult for Saruman/Sauron to make out much beyond Gandalf's bearded chops, so crucial intelligence like the number of the Fellowship, their races etc. would have remained hidden.

Assuming, of course, that their cover wasn't already blown