So why did 🧙Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???

[Grond]

Originally posted by lilhobo
Logically, Elrond and the dwarves should have sent an army down to take care of Saruman once his treason was evident.....Leaving Rohan and Gondor in the pincer that is Orthanc and Mordor was as silly as it was stupid.......

if it werent for the "forest spirits" and the ents, Saruman's 10,000 orcs and black men would have overrun helms deep and then on to Rivendell

A record lilhobo, three consecutive posts on the same thread within 10 minutes.

As to your assertion that Elrond and the Dwarves send their armies to attack, you might want to read the Appendix in the RotK. Had they exposed themselves, they would have been annihilated by the waiting armies of the Easterlings. As it was, they were under siege during much of the Fellowships travels. I say this in all sincerity lilhobo, you might try reading before you post.

 

[lilhobo]

well there isnt an appendix in the ROTK, and i have the three Books in the one volume paperback

But the point we are making is still LOGIC !!!!! If they had sent out their armies they would have been annihilated and yet if they had remained they would have still been annihilated IF it werent for the Ents........

Everyone is going on about how great it was to see Legolas and gimli counting their kills, but they only had ~40 each, when the enemy had 10, 000 out at the front

so lets get back to LOGIC

 

[DGoeij]

There isn't much logic to set out for a journey right into the hearth of a heavily guarded land, surrounded by mountains, trampled by Orcs, so far off it will take you months to get there in the first place, knowing you're searched by every bad guy on the surface of the world, that the head of the council of supposedly good guys started out for himself and wishes for this Ring you happen to have, there isn't much logic in even trying is there?

Now to have that off my chest, they decided to set out and try anyway. Then at least give it a good try, IMHO
The Caradhras wouldn't let them pass. Darn, it was the best option. Now what?

Pass of Rohan: Someone else covered that pretty good, reaching it without being spotted was difficult enough, open grass land, even if you're able to cross the Isen, right under the nose of Saruman. They weren't even sure on whose side the Rohirrim where.
Going North? I'm not sure. That would have cost them a very long time. It would have been cold too. Did they have enough time? I don't know. About this road I am not sure why they didn't try. Maybe I've missed somebody explaining that. I'd like to know.

Going further south: Now that would have taken even longer, with the chance of being confronted with an overrun Gondor.
Moria: Unclear picture, supposedly not safe. Something called Durin's Bane, bad on its own, like the Caradhras. Gandalf has been there before and was able to sneak through it. The enemies where not expecting them to try that road. If they could manage to end up on the other side, they would be able to find refuge in Lothlorien for some R&R.

I am probably not covering any new paths, but still Moria looks like the best option on this moment to me. Looking forward to replies.

 

[JeffF.]

Gap of Rohan vs Moria

The terrain in ME has always greatly concerned me as far as realism is concerned. Mountains and rivers are more impassible than they are in real life. For a river like the Isen so near to its source to be impassible except for the Fords of Isen is unlikely. Unfinished Tales even specifies that strong swimmers could cross it elsewhere which means to me that the fellowship could have found a route not near to Saruman. That the Misty mountains would have such few passes is also unlikely. Given all that even in the terrain as described for ME the Gap was the logical choice (based solely on terrain). Given the additional staff analysis factors of 'enemy forces' changes the equation. Saruman's Isengard 'dominates' (to use the military term) the Gap of Rohan and he has a large army capable of searching thru it. The enemy forces of Moria are unknown and the orcs of the Misty mountains are thought not to have recovered from the War of Dwarves and Orcs and the Battle of Five Armies. Dwarves (Balin's company) may also be in Moria and the Rohirrim are across the Isen. An unknown factor which seems to greatly concern Gandalph is the proximity of the ring to Saruman. Evidently Gandalph is concerned that bringing the ring too close to Saruman is an unacceptable risk. While it is known that Saruman above all the rest of 'the Wise' had studied the Great Rings it is not known what the danger of the One Ring's proximity to him exactly is. Durin's Bane is the final unknown factor (unknown to Gandalph-known to us). Gandalph had no knowledge that a Balrog is in Moria as shown by his surprise at the narrow bridge. Since Moria is more of a 'choke point' (another military term) than the Gap of Rohan I believe that had Gandalph known of the Balrog he would not have chosen Moria (surely if the Balrog found the ring he would have become the new Dark Lord adn the West would be in as much danger as if Sauron himself had regained The Ring). He would have taken his chance in the wider Gap of Rohan.

In anlyzing this I have tried to do it from the perspective of what Gandalph knew when he made the decision and not from the perspective of the arm chair tactician with greater knowlege and information than the historical figure actually had. In view of what Gandalph knew, taking terrain, enemy and friendly forces into account his tactical decision to enter Moria seems sound.

 

[Grond]

Thank you JeffF for the simple and concise answer I was hoping someone would post. Your logic is sound and I hope that the nay sayers will look upon this reasoned approach with favor and finally give up the argument that Gandalf had no sound and logical reason for taking the Moria route.

 

[Harad]

Thanks Jeff,

A sound analysis given certain constraints. IMO JRRT stacked the deck so that Gandalf would "know" less about Durin's Bane and "more" about Saruman.

On the plus side of the Gap that you didnt mention:

1. Boromir had negotiated it on his trip north.
2. Saruman could hardly spread his forces so thin, considering his preoccupation with Rohan to strongly hold the Gap. Any weak force, perhaps as many as 100 Orcs, could be handled by the Fellowship. Twang and chop. Slice and Fire!

On the minus side of Moria:
1. Gandalf "ignores" the lesson of Balin's silence for 25 years.
2. Gandalf plays down the significance of Durin's Bane, in principal. What are the choices for something that has wiped out a thriving Dwarf city. What COULD Durnin's Bane be.

If Lorien is his hidden necessary goal. Then Moria is the only way.

 

[Walter]

I really wonder if some people will ever realize, that repeating the same points over and over again doesn't give them any more weight, importance or justification...

...oh and, welcame back, Harad

 

[Snaga]

Harad,

I'm not sure why I bother to respond... I must be overcome with joy at your return...

IMO JRRT stacked the deck so that Gandalf would "know" less about Durin's Bane and "more" about Saruman.

On the one hand Gandalf had been at Orthanc a month or so earlier, and had known Saruman for 100s of years, and on the other he had twice been through Moria without seeing Durin's Bane. Call it stacking the deck if you will, but the experiences of Gandalf do kinda point to him knowing more about Saruman.

On the plus side of the Gap that you didnt mention:

1. Boromir had negotiated it on his trip north.
2. Saruman could hardly spread his forces so thin, considering his preoccupation with Rohan to strongly hold the Gap. Any weak force, perhaps as many as 100 Orcs, could be handled by the Fellowship. Twang and chop. Slice and Fire!

But Gandalf specifically does take into account Boromir's journey (previous posts refer). Since the second is your first attempt to counter my previous argument that Saruman was perfectly capable of closing the Gap I'll respond to 2, in more detail.

I gave a strategy for closing the Gap with 4000 orcs. We know that he has many times that number. My strategy was IMHO complete over-kill - but lets leave that aside. You believe that Saruman was 'pre-occupied' with Rohan and could not spread his forces so thin. In fact Saruman does not attack Rohan for some months after the Moria/Caradhras/Gap debate - not until the Fellowship reach Parth Galen in fact! So he can do what he likes with his troops. In any event, whatever Saruman's preoccupation with Rohan, is as nothing compared to his desire for the ring. He could and would spare the troops. And Gandalf knows it.

I'm sure you will find another argument though.

A most unquenchable Harad. Alll Wizards should have a Harad or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word

 

[Harad]

I dunno V of K. I suggest the thread of "Who has the Best Beard" as an alternate way to sharpen ones intellect.

Sorry I missed your 4000 Orc Recipe--sounds disgusting--but if the Gap is 70 miles wide that leaves 57 Orcs/mile with no means of communication between groups of Orcs and the ability of the Fellowship to easily isolate and hack thru small groups.

1. Gandalf had been to Orthanc: So Saruman is looking for the Ring. True. But the last fact either he or Gandalf knew was that the Ring was in the Shire. If I am Saruman with this knowledge, the FIRST thing I would do is put all my troops in the Gap of Rohan. Right after that I would take a flying leap off of Orthanc.

2. Gandalf specifically takes into account Boromir: He does, doesnt he? He says that things have changed since his trip, since Saruman has gone rotten. Lets turn this around. How much time has Saruman been bad and how much time does he have to prepare an impregnable defense of the Gap--not against a large army, mind you, but against a stealthy band of 9 heroes.

3. With regards to Moria, Gandalf discounts the fact that Balin has been "outtolunch" for 25 years. Plenty of time to prepare a nasty welcome. But, really what COULD anyone find to worry about in Moria? Talk about whistling past the graveyard!

4. Saruman is either a goshdurn genius or a total idiot, not both. On the one hand he throws all his Orcs into the Gap based upon the reasoning of 1. On the third hand he is unconcerned about Rohan, despite the fact that Young Eomer is gallivanting around the grassy plains lopping the heads off his Orcs. Seems a bit of misplaced priorities if thats really what Saruman was doing. No, in fact, he was preparing for war against Rohan, since his plan with Worm was unlikely to result in their complete surrender.

5. As far as exasperation of posters goes, how can yours compare with mine? You have the comfort of like-minded fellow travelers, whilst I toil alone trying to see how a narrow passage with doors at both ends is preferred over a 70 mile wide Gap.

 

[Tar-Palantir]

Ok, I'm gonna try this one again. In the last incarnation of this thread I put forth my theory as to why they went to Moria instead of another route. Unfortunately that thread got nuked. And since a certain degree of eloquence only comes to me once in a great while, I will apologize in advance for the cruditity of this post.

First of all, let's leave aside JRRT's motives for sending the Company through Moria - for the most part, everyone posting here has done that. It's unassailable and I'm impressed by the amount of thought that has gone into the deployment of Orcs across the Gap, among other things (the logic of the "story" as opposed to the author).

Here's the way I see it:

1) Gandalf was not gonna take them through the Gap. He gave enough arguments against it to convince me. He knew Saruman was bad news and he wasn't too sure about the Rohirrim either.

2) The High Pass. Too far north.

3) Caradhras. It's clear from reading the text that it was Aragorn's idea to try it, not Gandalf's. It had been a long-standing argument between them. The storm was a surprise (and not very widespread).

Ok, here's my theory: Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, and maybe Legolas knew what Durin's Bane was. The Balrog didn't leave Moria, otherwise I'm sure the news would have gotten around. Hence Aragorn's cryptic comments. So, they knew the Balrog was in Moria.
It's my contention that Gandalf knew on some level (probably subconsciously) that he had to become "The White" in order for the War of the Ring to be won. I'm not saying Gandalf committed suicide, but he always seemed a little too eager to go to to Moria to me (and not just to "get out of sight for a while" - although I think that plays into it). Aragorn knew the Balrog was there and that it was gonna be drawn to another Maia (maybe the Ring too). Again, hence his comments before they went in.

Alright, I've got my mithril coat on....so send your arrows!

 

[Aldanil]

And all we "fellow travellers" really do, after all, in between the numerous clandestine conference-sessions of our close-minded conspiracy, is to wonder what precisely the point might be of plowing back and forth over the same "open" but barren ground, in the apparent hope of demonstrating to an undetermined someone that The Fellowship of the Ring could have been substantially improved if only the author had been blessed with a clearer sense of strategic logic. Speaking entirely for myself, I genuinely can't understand why this argument continues to drag on like this at such tedious length, when the best and only truly reasonable solution to this knotty narrative problem has already been posted: take boats from Rivendell down Loudwater to where it joins Hoarwell, south by Greyflood to the Sea and across the Bay of Belfalas, up that unnamed river on the border of Near Harad and so at last enter Mordor, quite unsuspected, by the unguarded southwest corner of the Ephel Duath. Find the flaws in that theory, if you can -- if you dare!

Alas that our poor dear Oxford don John Ronald had not the benefit of our sage advice...

 

[lilhobo]

man, when i posted this thread it was a protest at threads being deleted whillynilly

but this thread still drags on coz HARAD keeps repeating his LOGIC, and walter keep posting how useless it was to keep repeating LOGIC

PS. if they went the river route there would have been more kraken chasing them and it would have been a better story

 

[Harad]

Aldanil very far now from his reward but still gamely going on,

1. I never said the FOTR would be improved by eschewing (god bless me) Moria. Quite the contrary.

2. I blame myself for not being able to explain simply enuf what seems obvious to me. The trouble is people can not put aside the slant introduced by JRRT and think in "real world" situations. Would the Gap have been closed? No. Could the Gap have been closed? Again no.

3. Your "scenario" could only be improved by equipping an Eagle with afterburners, strapping Frodo to one talon, Gollum to the other, and ending the story in one short chapter.

4. Finally, you act as if someone is holding a gun to your head, or, perhaps, you are holding your nose as you post. Either of those pictures doesnt reflect on me, now does it?

 

[Grond]

It seems that everyone on this thread (that I can see) is in agreement that Gandalf took the only logical and correct path to accomplish all the things that needed to be done. Moria was both logical and "the right choice". Why not close the thread as everyone is in agreement???

 

[Grond]

I must apologize. I have been PMed that Harad is still dissenting in the argument. Carry on!!!

 

[lilhobo]

hehhehe, was just about to say that harad is still in confusion , so the jury is still out

on the other hand he has started a new thread more specific to the issue at hand heheheh

 

[DGoeij]

So the Fellowship was capable of passing the Gap or going thru Moria. A few patrols in the gap they could have handled, but crossing of the Isen could have been a problem. Gandalf had passed thru Moria twice, able to avoid anything nasty. But after those two options, then what?

After the Gap: Miles and miles of open graslands, not far away from Isengard. They weren't sure whose side the Rohirrim where on.

After Moria: Short road to Lothlorien. Celeborn and Galdriel would welcome them and they would be safe during their stay there. It does sound a little better IMHO.

 

[Aldanil]

Once again the dread Hammer of the Underworld (two postings back) hit the nail right on the head; as some King or other once put it, "Can't we all just get along [with our lives]?" Take the pledge now that from this moment forward no longer will we allow ourselves to fall into the Gap!

Harad, if anyone is holding a gun to my head, it's only like Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles; and while I have tried on occasion posting while holding my nose with one hand, it does tend to cut way down on my typing speed! One good (if extremely minor) thing has come out of my sarcastic alternative route for the Fellowship; I tracked down the name of that "unnamed" river on the border of Southland -- it's the Harnen (as only makes sense). Finally, dear foe-man, if you yourself don't think that "FOTR would be improved by eschewing Moria -- quite the contrary", then what is the point of this endless argument? Going under the Misty Mountains rather than through the Gap of Rohan isn't the only possible path that the Company could have gone, merely the best among several choices; the reasons for this are clearly articulated within the story by characters whose reliability on the subject you challenge only at some peril to your own credibility, quite beyond the author's motives in constructing a narrative whose wonders you yourself acknowledge. The semi-exasperated length of this posting, I recognize, does somewhat resemble using the Mace of Morgoth to pound sand down a rat-hole (no least offense intended, O Grond!), and I know that we're all here just to share our opinions; nonetheless, I'm reminded of Gandalf's comment on Caradhras: you "cannot burn snow!"

What say we give the Gap a rest for a while, and adjourn instead to the movie forum to start a new thread for some really productive nit-picking about Moria, like why the Dwarves are supposed to have built all those absurd masonry stairs, and the architectural stress-limits that bear on tall narrow columns of brickwork!

 

[Harad]

Anyone taking the Hammer of the Underworld as an underpinning had best consider his own "architectural stress-limits." It never ceases to amaze how people so exasperated with these unimporant details, continue to post their final final and finally final ramblings.

Another source of amazement is the "Walter syndrome." Anybody he disagrees with is repeating the same details. Anybody he agrees with is given free reign to post the same tired arguments ad nauseum. And does it really add something if a new person posts the same exact points. Since the points have already been refuted what is this lone defender of truth justice and the integalacticefederationway to do? Now for me, I say let everybody post as much as they want. But I dont have the same discriminating tastes as those with the "Walter-syndrome."

And if anybody is interested I reported Walters post on this thread to the moderators since it was off-point and merely an attack, but apparently such posts are allowed. Therefore, my response is not an attack.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Harad
Another source of amazement is the "Walter syndrome." Anybody he disagrees with is repeating the same details. Anybody he agrees with is given free reign to post the same tired arguments ad nauseum. And does it really add something if a new person posts the same exact points. Since the points have already been refuted what is this lone defender of truth justice and the integalacticefederationway to do? Now for me, I say let everybody post as much as they want. But I dont have the same discriminating tastes as those with the "Walter-syndrome."

And if anybody is interested I reported Walters post on this thread to the moderators since it was off-point and merely an attack, but apparently such posts are allowed. Therefore, my response is not an attack.

Harad,

for all the obvious reasons I will not bother to reply with anything that would be considered "reasonably" or "logical" for we simply do not share the same understanding of those terms. Anyway, I think Your postings speak for themselves, hence I have nothing more to say to You, but will rather give You the honour to be the first one, that makes it onto my ignore-list - and Your "alter ego" as well, of course...Faretheewell!