So why did 🧙Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???

[Grond]

Yes, Harad and Pont. They were faced with making a choice between many different bad situations. Gandalf chose Moria because of the many reasons already cited on this thread. His reasons might not have been logical, they might not have been wise, but he was leading the company and felt the road through Moria had the greatest chance of being successful, as written by the author.

I continue to feel that Gandalf felt an intense need to get to Lorien and that was a driving force behind his choice.

 

[Greenwood]

I concur with Grond. Though everyone knew something known as "Durin's Bane" was in Moria (at least in the past), I can find no evidence that it was actually known to be a balrog. After the Fellowship has left Balin's Tomb, Gandalf tries to hold the door closed with a "shutting-spell". When Ganadalf tells the others about the incident a few minutes later, Gimli asks him if he met the beater of the drums. Gandalf replies: "I do not know. ... But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before." He describes putting the shutting spell on the door and talks about hearing the orcs on the other side of the door. He goes on: "Then something came into the chamber -- I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. ...." [emphasis added] A few pages on, when the balrog is at last revealed to all as they head for the bridge, Gandalf says: "A Balrog. .... Now I understand." All of the preceeding indicates to me that until the Fellowship's encounter with it, it was not common knowledge that Durin's Bane was a balrog. Most of us have read the books so many times that I think we sometimes have trouble remembering what is known when.

As I said in the earlier incarnation of this thread, I think Gandalf chose Moria as the best of a bunch of bad choices. I also pointed out earlier that Durin had been slain more than a thousand years earlier and even the dwarf/orc wars at the end of which Dain Ironfoot says that he has looked into Moria and Durin's Bane is still there, are over 200 years in the past. Balin and his folk re-entered Moria and lived there for five years before being wiped out. Gandalf did not know for sure that Balin was dead, though it had been 25 years since Balin was heard from. Gandalf did know that Balin lived for five years in Moria without trouble. I do not think it was a necessarily fool-hardy hope that the Fellowship could slip through unnoticed in a few days where Balin lived for five years.

 

[Greenwood]

If one argues that Saruman himself would be guarding the Gap then he would be a formidable threat. However, considering Saruman was not found outside of Orthanc until he was thrown out (true?) that seems unlikely.

In The Two Towers when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are camped outside of Fangorn forest they see an old man watvhing them who disappears when they try to approach him. They suspect he is Saruman, but there is no proof. The next day after they meet Gandalf, they ask him if he was the old man of the night before. He replies that he was not and surmises that Saruman had come to investigate what had become of his troops and their hobbit captives. Thus we have an indication that Saruman would indeed leave Orthanc in pursuit of the Ring.

 

[Grond]

Harad, I won't argue to your point, (I was wrong to do so on the last thread) as your point is valid. We are left to wonder why Gandalf made the choices he did. Was it to visit Lorien, was it because he feared Saruman (the known) more than Durin's Bane(an unknown) we'll never know. You have argued your point well that the Gap of Rohan certainly made sense and would have made a good story in itself.

Possibly the author already had a preconceived decision for the Fellowship to pass through Lorien (after all Galadriel was already an important player in his Histories and maybe he just had to include her in his book). For whatever the reasons, I find no monumental error in Gandalf taking the mines.... call it an error in judgement and not necessarily an error in logic.

And I mean this sincerely Harad.......... Peace!!

 

[Gothmog]

'Things have changed since you came north, Boromir,' answered Gandalf. 'Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over. But the Ring must not come near Isengard, if that can by any means be prevented. The Gap of Rohan is closed to us while we go with the Bearer.

This is the reason that Gandalf would not concider The Gap. It is because Saruman would be actively watching for the ring. Gandalf may well have wanted to go to Lorien and if so this may have influenced the decision. But he clearly states that "The Ring Must Not Come Near Isengard". Saruman may or may not have left the Tower but would have been watching and could have sent his Orcs to where the Ring was. After all he managed to do so on the other side of Rohan.

 

[Rian]

There is one point that is missing from this thread. In the book, while the company was debating on what path to take - they were attacked by Wargs. At that point, the closet path to choose was through Moria.

 

[Gothmog]

Rian that is a very good point, but Gandalf wanted to go through Moria before they had even left Rivendell. I think that this is why harad asked the question in the first place.

 

[Grond]

I am sure that I remember the author saying something about wanting to expand on "legends" mentioned in The Hobbit about which he had already written much text about. These things would have included Gondolin (which was destroyed), Galadriel, Celeborn and Amroth (two of whom resided in Lorien) and Moria (where Durin's Bane dwells). Isn't it likely that the author pointed Gandalf that way so that both the mines of Moria and Lorien would play pivotal parts in the story. I agree that he gave logical reasons not to take the Gap but the darkness of Moria and the light of Lorien add so much depth to the story. Gandalf behaves logically because the author makes it so.

 

[Gothmog]

This is so but I feel that the reasons of the author and the reasons of one the charaters in the book are two different questions. If we have concluded this question about Gandalf's reasons perhaps harad would like to start a thread about "Why Tolkien wanted the Fellowship to go through Moria?"

Could cause some interesting debate.

 

[Snaga]

The view that it would be easier to sneak through the Gap of R than Moria is one that I want to dispute. I do this from having some training in Search and Rescue (although I can't claim to be a world expert).

It is definitely easier to find someone/a group in an open relatively flat terrain than it is in cave complex. Caves would be easier if they were small, but Moria is huge. Even mountains locations are harder than open ground. Main point, you can overfly flat terrain more easily, and there are fewer points of concealment. Saruman and Sauron definitely have flying spies of one sort or another.

The approaches to the Gap are hostile to the Fellowship - they are the home of the Dunlendings, Saruman's allies. So plenty of options for intercedence on the ground. When you get to the Gap there is a river to cross. The main crossing is the Fords of Isen, and Saruman can easily cut them off. But even if they find other means of crossing, it is still relatively straightforward to post patrols all the way along the 70 mile length. Orcs travel very quickly, especially wolf-riders so you might not need that many to close it, if you can see the Fellowship coming from the air. Add into this that it is one of the most likely routes, so you would deploy lots of resources to close it off. On this basis, Gandalf's assessment of the Gap as high risk is correct.

Then all that leaves you to say is whether Moria was lower risk. My impression is that on the facts available to Gandalf the risks appeared lower. Because he didn't know that Durin's Bane was active, and he didn't know it was a Balrog, and he didn't know Sauron had sent Uruks up to try to block it. Moria is easier to block off if you EXPECT the Fellowship to go that way (because you need to hold the Bridge) but Gandalf gambled on it not being blocked because this was not an expected option.

Of course the right way to go was to sneak north, turn east by Mt Gundabad, nip along south of the Grey Mountains, stop for tea at Erebor, take a boat down to Rhun, and slip into Mordor by the back door. If Gandalf had taken Frodo on the back of Shadowfax, they could have been there in no time!

 

[Gothmog]

And also the Ents are roused to sack Isengard and defend Rohan while the Rohirrim are fighting in Gondor. This would not have happened if the Fellowship had used the Gap.

 

[Aldanil]

Logic Has Shown Me The Way OR Does Anyone Know The Name Of That River?

The river I'm asking after, sez Iaradanduin, is the large one that flows for many leagues along the border of Near Harad and empties into the Sea between Ethir Anduin and the City of the Corsairs; the fold-out map in the back of my old hardcover copy of ROTK doesn't give its name. I've been trying to apply the analytical method espoused by our Forum's own Harad to solve the apparently knotty problem posed by its so clear-minded questioning of the "logic" of either Gandalf or Tolkien (or both together) in choosing the way for the Ring to Go South, and I think I've figured it out. What would surely have proved the quietest, quickest, and most secretly surprising route for the Fellowship to follow (if only Mithrandir or our donnish short-sighted Author had possessed the good sense to see it) puts them in Elven-boats from Rivendell to ride the swift currents of Bruinen to Mitheithel past Tharbad to the mouth of Greyflood and so south and then southeast across the Bay of Belfalas, enjoying the envigorating ocean air all the while, of course, and approaching Mordor from a most unexpected angle too, quite a strategic plus there, sailing stealthily along up that nameless big river aforementioned north of Umbar, and finally sneaking into the Land of Shadow over the southwestern range of the Ephel Duath. Even Sauron wouldn't be looking for the Company to come up from behind him! This plan for the Fellowship would have just been the best, as I'm sure you'll admit if you can grasp the narrative concept, allowing for the contrast of the crebain avoided with the seagulls encountered, bringing into the story both the dusty dry heat of Mordor and the salty cool breezes of Belfalas. And I'm sure the One would certainly have reached Orodruin at this rate before the Fourth Age was more than a few years along. Why didn't the old Professor think of sending them that way, I wonder?

All of which is intended to underscore the point either hinted at or stated quite eloquently outright by a number of previous posts to this thread: the path of the Fellowship into Moria is dictated both by the lack of alternatives, as Gandalf's argument and the Ngaurhoth make clear, and by the deeper story-logic of the Tale, which indeed takes its course, just as it carried Tolkien along on his long journey of discovery in writing it, down into the darkness of Khazad-dum and on to the light of Laurelindorinan. Though wishing not to appear too naively reverent on the matter, I do think that debating whether or not the characters would have been smarter to act in other ways than they did if the author who created them had just used logic more rigorously shows both a kind of critical hubris and a real misunderstanding of the nature of fiction. Grond asserted (or conceded) a few entries ago that Gandalf's reasons "might not have been logical, they might not have been wise, but..."; I really cannot bring myself to agree with the Mace of Morgoth on this one. Mithrandir has eminently good if somewhat desperate cause to lead the Company into Moria, and the evidence to support that decision is strongly present in the novel and ably articulated in many of the postings above. Suggesting that Tolkien might have somehow done it differently and rather better if only his story-telling had been more "logical" is IMO kinda like being given 300 million dollars to turn a masterpiece into a movie and deciding instead to substitute an often distorted and shallow reimagining of its characters and narrative rhythm for much of the original's careful patterning, in fond hopes of enhancing its commercial appeal. Now where have I heard that before?

 

[Grond]

Aldanil, you can't disagree with my assertion because it is not an assertion. It is a might have statement. I was simply countering the arguments that in other reader's opinion's, the actions of Gandalf might have appeared misguided or illogical but that they were explained in depth by the author and very logical reasons were given for proceeding through Moria.

The point I was apparently failing to make is that the story is the author's and no one elses. It isn't perfection, just the best story I've ever had the pleasure to read.

 

[Aldanil]

A sentiment with which I can concur most wholeheartedly, dread Hammer my friend!

There I was, getting sniffy about what I perceived as unjustifiable concession, and you were only trying to be nice. . .

 

[Bombadillodillo]

sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia

It seems to me that it was Gandalf's intention all along to take the
path through Moria. They choose the southern route for the reason above, namely that it was not patrolled by the enemy. The fellowship did not take the northern passes for the same reason they did not take the Gap of Rohan: because they were heavily watched, they were the routes that the enemy expected them to take. Remember too that they had scouted all the lands before they ever left.

Regarding Durnin's Bane I will venture this opinion. It seems that no one knew whether Durin's Bane still was in Moria. It had not appeared for myriad years. Moreover, it seems to me likely that it rarely appeared and when it did it must have killed all to whom it manifested itself because not even the wisest and oldest seem to have known what it was. Moreover both Aragorn and Gandalf had been through the mines before and had found it empty.

What Gandalf did not realize was that the ring was attracting evil to itself, or at least how great this attraction was. He only began to realize when it was too late. He first noticed it when the Watcher attacked Frodo, but by then the company was forced to go through Moria. Even then they may have slipped through unnoticed but for Pippen's indiscrete curiousity. Gandalf's reasoning was completely consistent with the entire mission of the company. Going through Moria was perilous and unexpected. Yet it was a walk in the park and perfect logic when compared with the quest itself: to walk right into Sauron's stronghold itself, indeed right before his watchful gaze -- now that is ridiculous illogic.

It is interesting that Gandalf did not realize how powerfully the ring drew evil unto itself in its search for its master. Gandalf's fall in Moria seems to indicate that even the wisest would be of little aid on this quest. Not through wisdom was the ring to be destroyed. Indeed the quest seemed folly to the wise: ahem, Harad -.

And let's not forget, the path through Moria was a success, partly through "luck" since the company bypassed the fiery chasm and the trap set for them, and partly because of the courage and sacrifice of Gandalf, who was the wisest of the company. Indeed we could say that the path through Moria was successful because of the sacrifice of wisdom. The wisdom of taking that path used the same logic as the path of the quest. By seemingly sacrificing wisdom and choosing what to all appeared utterly foolish, they fooled the logic of Sauron.



sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia

 

[Rian]

I had forgotten that they had sent out scouts prior to leaving Rivendell. If they indeed found that the other passes were heavily watched, I believe Gandalf would have decided on taking the company through Moria.

 

[Greenwood]

I really do not see any justification in the books for this idea of the Ring being some sort of a "magnet" for evil, at least not at any distance beyond a face to face confrontation. If the Ring really has any sort of long-range draw for "evil" how do the Nazgul manage to attack the wrong room on Bree? Why is Frodo the last hobbit to be taken by the barrow-wight? Why does Ugluk and his troop grab the wrong hobbits? How do Sam and Frodo get away with their disguise as orcs in Mordor? Why isn't every evil creature in Mordor drawn to them as they make their way to Orodruin?

 

[Aldanil]

Not to "heap" anything heavier than a mild measure of sarcasm on the fearless persistence of your iconoclasm, friend Harad, but I'm almost moved to wonder: are you seeking admission to the guild of the Nit-Picking Weenies? There may well be support, as evinced by the fine first effort of Thorin, for the notion of rewriting the screenplay; your implicit attempt at rewriting the novel, however, seems a bag-end at best. I hope this doesn't come across sounding smaug...

 

[Bombadillodillo]

Greewood wrote:

"I really do not see any justification in the books for this idea of the Ring being some sort of a "magnet" for evil, at least not at any distance beyond a face to face confrontation. If the Ring really has any sort of long-range draw for "evil" how do the Nazgul manage to attack the wrong room on Bree?"

This is a good point. There does seem to be some inconsistancy on the draw of the ring. I often wondered the same thing. You are wrong, however, to say there was no draw. And I am not talking about long-range draw but immediate attraction. Gandalf specifically comments on the fact that the Watcher attacks Frodo first and likewise that the orc-chieftan attacks Frodo who is probably the least menacing of the company. You would think that the orc chieftan would aim his spear at one of the warriors. Regarding Bree, it is very unlikely that the Riders attacked the hobbits room. Strider thought that the riders were too far from Mordor to make a direct assault on the inn. They prefer to use the influence of their fear on others and I think that it was just as likely one of the Southrons and Ferny who attempted the assassination. It would be more in line with the way the nine acted especially so far from Mordor.

Harad,

I'm not sure what you are saying. Gandalf does not know what hidden evils await in Moria. Both he and Aragorn have travelled it before and know that it is dangerous, but it has been abandoned for a long time, and as far as they know orcs have not returned to Moria in a long time. Regarding the Gap of Rohan, he knows the power of Saruman and knows that he is watching that pass most heavily. More importantly, he does not know that Rohan has not yet been won over. But even in the case of the men of Rohan his fears are in part correct. Saruman's Uruk-hai would have been safe had Eomer not disobeyed the king's orders, influenced by Wormtongue.

I don't know what is wrong with Gandalf's logic. Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf, and he expects the ring to pass through the gap. All of Saruman's powers are focused on getting the ring before it reaches Minas Tirith, for he wishes if it is possible to gain the ring himself. His best shot (which he gets at the Falls of Rauros) is to get the ring while it is still far from Sauron. Had the company chosen the Gap, it would most likely have fallen into his hands; remember unknown to Gandalf, Saruman possesses a palantir.

Moreover, I think it the intention of Tolkien to show that wisdom is not going to avail the company on their mission. The mission itself seems to defy all conventional wisdom. The company almost acts recklessly, and their only hope is to defy the logic of Saruman and Sauron. The point of going through Moria is that it is the last path that Sauron or Saruman would think of. It would not be watched by either Sauron or Saruman. If I am correct, neither Sauron's nor Saruman's orcs were in Moria. It seems that the orcs of the dark fire were in the service of the Balrog. And at least as of this time the Balrog was not in the service of the Dark Lord. He remains from the first age and it is not likely that he would easily come under the sway of Sauron especially now when Sauron still did not have the ring.

In any case, the more interesting aspect of the journey in the dark, is that Gandalf does fall. And as I have said before, wisdom will not avail the quest. Indeed it is less helpful to the bearer than the strength of arms. The company loses their wise guide even before they lose the strength of Boromir and the other great warriors. What then is necessary to bring the ring to its Doom?

 

[Bombadillodillo]

Sorry Greenwood,

I obviously didn't read the very passage I quoted.