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Uruks vs. Uruk-hai


If you don't mind a little side question from an observer - why wouldn't this be "orcs"?
 

In the Uruk-hai chapter the Northerners complain about the Sun, and there is a (seeming) connection between the Northerners lack of endurance and the sun:

Prior to this:

The Sun is not mentioned.

Some note that after:
While the setting of the Sun may have helped 'invigorate' the Mordorean Orcs, we also know that the Riders were gaining on them:

This was posted between aragil and I earlier in the thread:


There is another bit on page 16 in this thread.
Saruman's Uruk-hai may have been able to withstand the Sun better than Sauron's. But I dont see that Sauron's Uruk-hai were greatly effected either.
 
Further Sun Evidence

Black Orcs, great strength. No mention of sun tolerance.


'Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?' said Gimli. 'Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun. Yet these have done so,' said Legolas.
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Is Legolas ignorant of Orcs? Or has he just conveniently forgotten about the 544 years that Uruks have been running amock? (Or, are the Uruks of Mordor actually susceptible to sunlight?)


Orc/Men hybrids. Sun tolerance. Implication that the two are related. Further implication that non-hybrids will not be sun-tolerant. Also Middle-earth history: all Orcs up until the time of Saruman have not been able to abide the sun. Has Treebeard been sleeping the past 544 years?


More Orc/Men hybrids. More sun tolerance. Implication that this is a new invention, not one that has been around for 544 years. Note also, the three categories here neatly coincide with the three categories that Merry reports to see exiting Isengard: Here the match would be:
half-orcs=endless lines of marching Orcs,
orc-men=men with goblin-faces,
and wild men of the hills=battalions of men.
Note also that Tar-Elenion's reading of the passage has Gamling totally discount the Uruk-hai in his speech, in spite of the facts that:
1) Tar-Elenion's argument is that all Soldier Orcs, both those of Mordor and those of Isengard are sun resistant.
2) The Uruk-hai themselves claim to be sun-resistant, and apparently make up the majority of Saruman's forces.


Saruman did cross-breed orcs and men! No mention here of Sun tolerance, but there is nice corroboration with Treebeard's speculation that Saruman's crossing of orcs and men would produce sun-tolerant orcs. Again, Treebeard notes that Saruman's orcs can withstand sunlight. He then speculates that in order to get this sun-tolerance Saruman might have crossed Orcs and Men. Later we learn that Saruman indeed crossed Orcs and Men. Wouldn't it be odd if this crossing had no effect on their sun-tolerance, especially given Gamling's comment that specifically the hybrids of Saruman are unaffected by daylight?
Also, we now have more terms to equate to Saruman's army list. The equation runs thus: Gamling's quote, Merry's account, Morgoth's Ring:
half-orcs=endless lines of marching Orcs=Men-Orcs
orc-men=men with goblin-faces=Orc-men
wild men of the hills=Dunlendings=(not mentioned)
Notice that if the half-orcs above are also Uruk-hai, then we've accounted for all of the sun-tolerant troops under Saruman's command.
Note also that at this point we have many quotes attesting to the sun-tolerance of Saruman's Orcs specifically, and exactly 0 quotes attesting to Uruk son-tolerance in general.
Take into account the above quotes which Tar-Elenion has kindly re-posted, and there are even statements which could be interpreted as showing Mordor Uruks to be not sun-tolerant (as Treebeard implies). In fact, Tar-Elenion's theory on the Lugburz Ape/Mountain Maggot/Saruman's Uruk-hai race sets up an interesting equation:
Uruk-hai: stronger, hardier than Lugburz Apes, not more sun tolerant
Uruk-hai: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, not stronger or hardier
Lugburz Apes: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, yet less strong and hardy.
As I said before, what a strange mix of Orcs!

jallan- Thank you for at least admitting the slimmest of possibilities that my reading is valid!! That is all I want. I don't expect to swing anybody's view on this, just to demonstrate why I think the way I do. Your acknowledgement (however slim) is very much appreciated, although it may undermine the legendary contentiousness of this thread.
That being said, I do of course have some points to make. First of all, regarding Sam's ignorance of the term Uruk-hai: I think that is debatable if you assume that Sauron's Uruks are in fact also Uruk-hai. Following the advent of the Uruk-hai, there is an immediate swelling in Orc activity- the peopling of Moria with Orcs and the abduction of Celebrian, the battle at the fields of Celebrant (the establishment of the Kingdom of Rohan), and various incursions into Eriador, culminating with the Dwarf-Orc war of 2766-2769. I detailed this all in my post here (please ignore my ignorant statement about 'Ringwraiths' being an anglicization of Nazgul- obviously I've learned some things on this thread). What this timeline demonstrates to me is that Hobbits are familiar with Uruks through the 'war' with Golfimbul. If these Uruks were actually Uruk-hai like those at Helm's Deep, then we could imagine they'd mention this fact at every full stop. According to this timeline and the assumption that Uruks=Uruk-hai, every Hobbit child that goes in for histories (i.e. Sam) should know the term Uruk-hai.
Other little points (again, I hate to be contentious, but you might find earlier information interesting)
Gorbag's lot was taken care of- the two Orcs who shot Lagduf and Muzgash are later found by Sam, see my posts here , here and here , as well as HoME IX, p. 24. Even if they weren't taken care of, you'd think Higher Ups would have their priorities straight. What seems more important, a few stray Orcs, or a great Elf spy? In any case, we do know that the Higher Ups are capable of a much better description than "a small dwarf-man": This is certainly a more accurate assesment than "small Dwarf-man". What epiphane caused the change in tone?

As for Shagrat and Grishnakh, I really feel that short in relation to Ugluk and large in relation to Snaga II could easily result in the two being the same height. In any case, they both have those long arms reaching almost to the ground- certainly a strikingly similar description, in my book at least.

How thin is my argument? I honestly believe it is a matter of opinion. Looking at the history of the terms, we see that in 1944 Tolkien had three separate groups of Orcs in mind: goblins, Black Orcs, and Uruk-hai. In the published work there are still three reasonably separate groups of Orcs- plain Orcs, Soldiers of Mordor, and Soldiers of Isengard, respectively. The soldiers of Mordor are usually referred to as Uruks, those of Isengard are usually referred to as Uruk-hai. They were different in their conception, and they remain different in the published work (see sun tolerance). The only question is whether or not Tolkien intended for the soldier Orcs of Mordor to also be Uruk-hai, in which case his definition for the term Uruk-hai would have had to change from it's conception in 1942. It's of worth to note at this point that the first two times JRRT used the terms Uruks, he italicized (not to be confused with anglicized) them- these are the entries on the last two pages of The Land of Shadow. I think this is interesting- it looks to me like Tolkien was really dealing with something new at this point, rather than just the Uruk-hai which he had been describing for the previous 6 years.
 

I wonder if the last years of Denethor I all took place at night.

'Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?' said Gimli. 'Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun. Yet these have done so,' said Legolas.
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And what would Legolas have forgotten? He speaks the truth. All Orcs, of any sort, prefer the dark to the sun, they all hate it. And of course there are Mordor Orcs along with the Isengarders traveling in the Sunlight as well.

Treebeard says:
It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.
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Of course we also know that Grishnakh's company abided and endured the Sun. And we know that Sauron's Orcs fight all day in the sunlight during the battle of the Pelennor Fields, and quite succesfully for a time. All Orcs prefer the dark.



That is interesting because while aragil says the Half-orcs=the Orcs (meaning the Uruk-hai), _Aragorn_ calls the 'men with goblin faces' "half-orcs" just a couple lines later. Interesting. It is also interesting that Gamling speaks of the 'sun resistant' nature of the 'hill men'.
1)Aragil has yet to show that the soldier-orcs of Mordor were not sun resistant in light of the facts that they run in the sun with out being greatly effected if at all, and they fight all day in the sunlight at the Pelennor Fields.
Note that Tar-Elenion has said Saruman's Uruk-hai may be able to better withstand the sun than Sauron's and he has also said that Sauron's Uruk-hai seem to be a different breed than Saruman's.

Aragil says: half-orcs=marching Orcs=Men-Orcs, Aragorn says half-orcs=men with goblin-faces. Who to believe?

Like the ones where they run and fight all day in the sun with little or no ill effect?

Tar-Elenion did NOT advance this 'theory'. I suggest you read more carefully what I wrote, and refrain from putting words in my mouth.


Hmm... good question... I wonder if it could be because the Mouth of Sauron knows more than a simple soldier-orc and tracker?
Which describes a Hobbit better to some one who does not know what Hobbit is: "a sort of small dwarf-man" or an 'imp, brat, spy from a rat-land called the Shire'?

Please provide JRRT's definition for the term.


Aragil has yet to provide any evidence that Isengarders were involved in the events at Cirith Ungol.
 
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reply (part 1)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I wonder if the last years of Denethor I all took place at night.
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I wonder if every single Orc engagement from the First Age on occurred at night. The answer is probably not. Any Orc can fight during the day- they just don't fight well because they are not sun-tolerant. Were the Uruks of TA 2475 sun-tolerant? There is no statement either for or against. However, judging by the fact that Legolas, Gamling, and Treebeard all remark specifically on the Isengarders sun-tolerance, it seems like sun-tolerance is a sufficiently remarkable characteristic. This begs the question, why doesn't Tolkien mention sun-tolerance in the passage in the appendix rather than remarking on the size and strength of the Uruks? Which trait is more rare among pre-Uruk orcs: strength or sun tolerance? Many characters remark about Isengarders being sun tolerant. Exactly zero characters remark about Mordor Orcs' sun-tolerance. Why do I bear the burden of proof on this issue?


At this point there are only Isengarders and Moria Orcs travelling together. Their discussion runs thus: The implication is that the Moria runts would not run if Ugluk's lot was not making them. This is what I would like to call the "natural state of orcs". They can operate in daylight, they just do so poorly- i.e. not as well as Isengard troops.


Yes Grishnakh's troop was able to run in the day. So were the Moria Maggots. Neither of them ran as well as Ugluk's troop.
Sauron's orcs at the Pelannor fight quite successfully? Is that a Mordor euphemism? I can find exactly two passages about Orcs at Pelannor- both mention routing, one mentions sunlight. All mention of Mordor forces actually fighting at Pelannor in the sunlight seem to be in reference to the Haradrim and Easterlings, who I agree, are probably sun-tolerant.


Word order is important in English. Adjectives modify nouns, and in the case of compound words, preceed the noun they modify. You are a language guy, it is embarrasing for me to have to tell you this. The following are all men, with adjectival modifiers which show orcish characteristics: "Goblin-men", "Orc-men", "Men with Goblin faces", "squint-eyed Southerner at Bree", "squint-eyed Ruffians in the Shire". Orcs too can be modified with adjectives, however they will still be Orcs. The following are examples of such creatures found in the narrative: "Orcs", "Men-orcs", "Half-orcs". Any which I am forgetting? All of the above fall into the two broad categories from Morgoth's Ring: Orc-men and Men-orcs, respectively.
Absolutely, Gamling speaks of the sun-resistant nature of the hill-men. His point, I believe, is that NONE of the forces of Saruman are going to be bothered by the sun, whether they are half-orcs, goblin-men, or hill-men. Is Gamling forgetting about the Uruk-hai? Seems like they are a pretty important part of the equation. Perhaps that is what the reference to half-orcs is intended to convey?


Again, I have five quotes (three sir!) which tie sun-resistance in with being human/orc hybrids. Sauron's Uruks were not human/orc hybrids, the logical conclusion is that they were not sun tolerant. There are many quotes remarking that Saruman's troops are sun-tolerant. There are no such quotes regarding Sauron's troops. Any Orc will fight in the sun if the need is there- they are not vampires or trolls. They will even run in the sun if needs be- the Moria Maggots are proof of this. However, they will not be as effective- I'd say the Battle of the Pelannor fields is an excellent example of this. In the case of running, Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky", and they fall behind Ugluk's troop. Why are Ugluk's troop never mentioned as dropping their heads in the sun?
The natural state of Orcs is that they can't abide the sun. Several characters remark that Isengard troops can abide the sun, thereby allowing these troops to be exceptions outside the natural state. Exactly zero characters remark on a Mordor-orc's sun-tolerance, thus indicating that the Mordor troops exist within the natural state of Orcs- i.e. they are not sun-tolerant. If you want the Mordor Orcs to lie outside of the natural state of Orcs, then logic says that the burden of proof is on you, not me.
However, if you believe that Sauron's troops are in fact not as sun-resistant as the Isengarders, as you seem to be implying in your second point, then please stop disagreeing with me when I post statements to this effect. You can't say "aragil is wrong" and then agree with me in consecutive sentences. Not with regards to the same point. Not if you expect useful discussion to occur.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Aragil says: half-orcs=marching Orcs=Men-Orcs, Aragorn says half-orcs=men with goblin-faces. Who to believe?
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Half-orcs are orcs with human characteristics. Men with goblin-faces are men with orcish characteristics. "Half" modifies orcs. "With goblin-faces" modifies men. Two different races, two different creatures. Believe your English teacher.
 
reply (part 2)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Like the ones where they run and fight all day in the sun with little or no ill effect?
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Grishnakh's Apes run all day. So do the Moria Maggots. Ugluk's troop runs faster than both. Mordor orcs hang their head while running because of the effects of the sun. In case you have never run long distance let me fill you in on something: it is bad form to drop your head- it slows you down.
I have seen no evidence in the Pelannor fields narrative that Orcs were in fact fighting after the sun came up. The two mentions of Orcs I do see run thus: In the context given, the first two quotes show that the Northern half of the Pelennor was occupied mostly by Orcs. It is they who are overtaken by terror when the darkness is removed. Not exactly fighting well, and the two mentions of sunlight make me think that the sun has something to do with the poor performance. Mordor troops are mentioned to be fighting, but they all seem to be men (or at least troll-men): These are all the mentions I can find of fighting during the battle. The Haradrim are mentioned often, the Easterlings, Variags of Khand, and the troll-men of Far Harad are all mentioned a couple of times apiece. The legions of Morgul are mentioned twice, but I can find no evidece that they contained Orcs. Frodo's eyewitness account runs thus: I see horsemen, but no mention of Orcs.
Conspicuously absent now from the account of Pelannor is any mention of Orcs except for the two earlier passages which mention them fleeing. How can anyone say that Sauron's Orcs faught at Pelannor with 'little or no ill effect" from sunlight?? In the interest of solving that puzzle, I'm attaching the account of the Pelannor fields. If anyone can find a description here of Orcs fighting well (as opposed to being routed), you get a lollipop!!


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Tar-Elenion did NOT advance this 'theory'. I suggest you read more carefully what I wrote, and refrain from putting words in my mouth.
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Your theory appears to me to be that Ugluk's lot is stronger and hardier than the Mordor Orcs, yet no more sun-tolerant in spite of the fact that the Mordor Orcs are hanging their heads until the sun goes down. You seem to agree that Ugluk's band is more sun-tolerant than the mountain maggots, therefore they do not need to be stronger or hardier in order to overtake them. The above equation is pursuing this logic to it's natural conclusion. Exactly which part of this statement is putting words into your mouth?


I'd say halfling best describes a Hobbit, as per Ugluk's orders:
'Orders.' said a third voice in a deep growl. 'Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That's my orders.'
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When the Higher-ups want to, they can do better than "dwarf-man". For me the implication is that the Higher-ups are a little confused in this case.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Please provide JRRT's definition for the term. {Uruk-hai}
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In 1942 JRRT used the term Uruk-hai to refer to Isengard Orcs. Between 1942 and 1948 he never referred to Mordor Orcs as either Uruk-hai or Uruks. However, during this span he did write about the Mordor soldier-Orcs which he later called Uruks, he simply had different names for them. The implication is that between 1942 and 1948 JRRT had no intention of using the word "Uruk" in any form to refer to soldier Orcs of Mordor. I have no idea what JRRT's precise definition of the term Uruk-hai was at the time, but judging by the context of the writings it had nothing to do with soldiers of Mordor.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Aragil has yet to provide any evidence that Isengarders were involved in the events at Cirith Ungol.
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I have no intention of showing that Isengarders were involved at Cirith Ungol- if this is what you are waiting for then you will be waiting until the cows come home. My view is, and has always been that rebel Uruk-hai MIGHT (please notice I'm mentioning this as a possibility) be a mistaken identity, just as Sam is in fact not an great Elf, and Frodo is neither a dwarf nor a man (nor a mix of the two). Have Mordor troops ever been attacked by Isengarders in order to steal away spies from the Rat land of the Shire? Actually, yes they have- just 20 days earlier, an event that is doubtless still on every Mordorian's mind. And these particular Isengarders identified themselves as Uruk-hai at every opportunity. No, this would not be a good excuse if the Tracker and Soldier were operating under good intelligence. However, given that the only thing that the two Orcs agree about is that their information makes no sense (‘Garn! You don’t even know what you’re looking for.’ ‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up'), I believe it is a valid reading. I believe your take is also a valid reading, a courtesy you seem reluctant to reciprocate.
 

Attachments

  • pelannor.txt
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The prevailing logic as I see it is this: Uruk literally means 'orc', so 'Uruks' would literally be translated as 'orcs'. However, towards the end of the Third Age 'Uruk' is only used to refer to large Soldier-Orcs, regardless of the literal meaning of the word. Sam "understands" the word as spoken by Gorbag, including the context. Gorbag did not mean that any orc was left to put things straight, but only that the large Soldier-orcs had to do so. Sam understood it in this sense, so the natural translation would be 'Uruks'.
My contention as always is that since this is a self-reference by a Mordor Orc (one speaking Black Speech, no less), it is pretty damning evidence that 'Uruks' is a seperate term from 'Uruk-hai'. I do not think that the Ring translated everything Sam heard into Westron (obviously it didn't, as 'Gorbag' and 'Shagrat' are either Black Speech or pure Orcish names). I believe the Ring allowed Sam to understand what was being said in it's own language. When I listen to Spanish I don't translate a word such as 'tampoco' into English 'neither'. I understand it as 'tampoco'. This is how I believe the Ring works.
In any case, we know that the internal conceipt of the story is that Frodo wrote down the word 'Uruks' after he had access to Pippin and Merry's information on the Uruk-hai, as well as Sam's account of Gorbag and Shagrat. If Frodo recognized the two groups of Orcs as being the same, he should have had Gorbag say 'Uruk-hai', as it was here being used in the same sense in which Ugluk had earlier used it. I respect Frodo's abilities as a writer and a linguist, therefore if he used two distinct terms here, then I believe it was because he was referring to distinct creatures.
If we pull ourselves out of the internal conceipt of the story, then things become even easier. Tolkien wrote 'Uruks' for Gorbag's statement, he had earlier written 'Uruk-hai' for Ugluk. If he intended the two Orcs to belong to the same race then the easiest way for him to have shown that would have been to use the same term to describe them, especially since the Orcs are speaking in the same context. He didn't- I think that is significant.
Hope that answer's your question Nom, and in any case, 'observers' are welcome to stay if they find anything which suits their fancey.
 
Re: reply (part 1)


The begged question might rather be how much experience did Legolas, Gamling and Treebeard have with the Uruks of Mordor. Presumably all had experience with the lesser breeds that were in greater numbers in their environs. You bear the burden of proof because I am challenging your assertions that the Uruks of Mordor were not 'tolerant' of the sun. I have already posted evidence that they could tolerate the sun (eg The Northerners a said to be 'flagging in the sun', not the Orcs of either Isengard or Mordor.)

Yes Grishnakh's troop was able to run in the day. So were the Moria Maggots. Neither of them ran as well as Ugluk's troop.
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The question is why? We know the Northerners complained about the sun. We know they were a lesser breed. We know they were 'flagging in the sun'. There are two possibilities given for the Orcs of Mordor not running as well as the Isengarders. One is because the Isengarders were "quicker and hardier", the other is "because of some plan of Grishnakh's". Neither possibilty mentions the sun.



The sun starts shining when the Rohirrim charge and start routing the Mordorians. The sun is shining when the Witch King comes to slay Theoden, and be slain (his arrival causes a great shadow). The sun is shining after he is slain, (Merry stands blinking in the sunlight). At mid-morning when the day begins to turn against Gondor the wind is blowing, the rain is flying the sun is shining and the air is clear. Mordor is winning, and all hope is lost because the watchmen see afar the Corsairs of Umbar coming. The hosts of Mordor are enheartened and come yelling to the onset. All this while the sun is shining. Only when the Mordorians realize that the Ships are filled with their enemy, do they become bewildered and filled with dread. It does not make any mention of the Orcs being cowed by the sun. The sun did not rout them, surprise and fear did.


After the initial rout by the Rohirrim, and the death of the Witch-king, it is stated that men from the City drove against the legions of Morgul that were gathered in strength at the south walls, these had not been routed until they were attacked (though the sun was shining). Then the Enemy's reserves are sent in. Now the tide is turning again. Then the Corsairs are seen. A great press of Eomers 'first foes' are between him and Harlond, while 'new foes' cut Eomer off from Imrahil. It is realized that the 'Corsairs' are actually allies. Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.


Word order is important in English. Adjectives modify nouns, and in the case of compound words, preceed the noun they modify. You are a language guy, it is embarrasing for me to have to tell you this.
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You have me confused with someone else. Cian and Jallan are the 'language guys'


Fascinating. However you are wrong. In the text Aragorn specifically refers to what you term 'men with orcish characteristics' as "half-orcs". Pippin also speaks of "half-orcs and ruffians" in the Shire (and Merry slays "a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc") where there were no Uruk-hai.



None are?
"On they rode, the king and his companions. Captains and champions fell or fled before them. Neither orc nor man withstood them. Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders and their faces to the valley. They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day."
TT, Helm's Deep

Fear came upon Saruman's Uruks with the rising of the day.



The Northerners complain about and 'flag' in the sun. The Mordor Orcs do not.
The text does not say that "Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky",". The sun is only said to effect the Northerners. The text does not say why the Mordor orcs had there heads bowed. We do know that Orcs tend to run bent over.


I believe it is likely that the Isengarders are _more_ tolerant of the sun than the Uruk-hai of Mordor. However I have seen no evidence that they are greatly so.
However what you keep claiming is that they are _not_ sun tolerant. The Northerners are obviously much more effected by the sun than either of the other groups. Those you could say are 'not sun tolerant'.
The same can not be said for those of Mordor. Indeed the "evidence" you give is a misconstrual of the text ("Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky""). The text does not say that at all. Was this deliberate? Useful discussion does not occur when such things as that happen.


I think I will trust what JRRT wrote when he had Aragorn refer to the goblin-faced men as Half-orcs, which contradicts your statement..
 
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Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Gamling and Legolas make their statements to Aragorn. Aragorn says of himself "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs". If either Gamling or Legolas was wrong in their statements, you can assume Aragorn would correct them. He doesn't, so their statements are in effect testified to by the most knowledgeable mortal on the matters of Orc-kind. Still not enough evidence? Legolas had just encountered Uruks in Moria- he never mentioned them looking particularly strange- why should they? They've been around for 544 years. In that time they've had at least one engagement with the Elves of Mirkwood- The Battle of Five Armies. As for Gamling, I've mentioned before that the war which formed the Kingdom of Rohan (the fields of Celebrant) was fought against probable Uruks. Again the Rohirrim faced probable Uruks following the Orc-dwarf wars, when the tattered remnants of the Orcs tried to flee into the White Mountains. More Uruks were probably encountered in 2885, whent the twin sons of Folcwine perished fighting with Gondor in Ithilien. 16 years later Ithilien was finally overun by Uruks. The whole history of Rohan has been bound up with Uruks- I think it is safe to assume that Gamling is familiar with them.
Lack of a mention in one case is not proof by any means. I can come up with zillions of passages that don't state Uruks and Uruk-hai are the same thing. Would you be willing to accept that as evidence that they are different? Again, I have provided several quotes which describe the natural state of Orcs- they can not tolerate the sun. I have provided several passages which describe the hybrid creatures of Saruman as being sun-tolerant, THESE ARE THE ONLY ORCS DESCRIBED AS BEING SUN-TOLERANT. I've even provided passages which suggest that Mordor Orcs are effected by the sun- you choose to interpret them differently. None of this changes the facts- there are passages which say Orcs are effected by the sun. There are passages which say Isengard orcs are special for not being effected by the sun. There are no passages which state that Mordor Orcs are uneffected by the sun. I would think that this is enough evidence.


An explanation is provided later when the Mordor Orcs raise their heads. They have been running with their heads down- this slows them down. When the sun is no longer on their heads they are able to raise them, at which point they put on speed. Ugluk's lot is quicker than Grishnakh's because they need not worry about the sun- Grishnakh and company do. A 'plan' of Grishnakh's doesn't even come into play- the fact that he falls behind the Isengarders does nothing except get his own boys closer to the bows of the pursuing Rohirrim. Ugluk is not planning on bolting back across Rohan to Mordor. The Mordor Orcs have no conceivable reason for falling to the back, and, given Grishnakh's very strong preservation instinct, you can believe that if there was any way to stay further out of range of the Rohirrim bows, Grishnakh would do so.


This is simply a cut and paste from one of your old posts. It does not address the fact that none of the forces described as fighting include orcs. Read my other post. I've even provided you with an electronic version of the text. Take my word for it or look yourself- there is no mention of Orcs fighting here, only men.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You have me confused with someone else. Cian and Jallan are the 'language guys'
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My mistake- I meant it as a sincere compliment, especially when discussing Tolkien. Earlier comments you had made regarding manuscripts had made me think you had linguistic training. Obviously I don't have such training, so I guess I don't have any way of recognizing someone who does.


First off, we don't know that the term "Uruk-hai" doesn't include Orc-men. Second of all, "half" modifies orc, not man. There is simply no way to be wrong about that.


Yes, fear came upon Saruman's troops with the rising of the day. But it was not fear of day itself, or of the sun. The next passage clearly states:
Clearly the host of Saruman is in terror of the king and the trees, as stated- nothing to do with morning or sun. This is not the same case as at Pelannor, which is where I assume you are going with this. There it is stated:
For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.
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Immediately preceeding "terror took them" is the fact that the darkness is removed. No mention of trees. No mention of them being terrified by Theoden. Just the mention of darkness being removed.


The text says
Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.
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The implication here is that the Orcs lift their heads because the sun has gone down. If there is another interpretation of why their heads are not raised until the sun goes down, I would like to hear it. Running bent over is not the same as running with your head down. Bent over is a result of the position of the shoulders. Head down is a result of the position of the neck.


This was not a misconstrual of the text. It was an interpretation, and as it stands it is the only interpretation which has been given. Answer the question: Why don't the Mordor Orcs lift their heads until after the sun goes down?


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I think I will trust what JRRT wrote when he had Aragorn refer to the goblin-faced men as Half-orcs, which contradicts your statement..
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Then you believe that "half-orc" describes a man instead of an Orc. There is no arguing with such a belief.
 
Re: reply (part 2)

 
Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)



Which has nothing to do with Legolas comment that Orcs seldom journey out in the Sun. All hate the sun. The vast majority of Orcs involved in the Battle of Five Armies would not have been Uruks. The would have been of lesser breeds. The Orcs at Celebrant came from the Misty Mountains, the vast majority of them would have been lesser breeds. Ditto for after the Dwarf and Orc wars.
It is telling that Gamling speaks of Half-orcs and Goblin-men, while in the narrative voice the Uruk-hai are always referred to as Orcs or Goblins. I prefer not to make assumptions.

The _text_ gives two possibilities for Grishnakh's people to fall back. Neither of them has anything to do with the sun. You are attempting to read something into the text that is not there. The text does not say they are _able_ to raise their heads when the sun goes down. It merely says that they do raise their heads. You can believe that if JRRT wanted to say that they slowed down because of the sun then he would have done so, like he did when he wrote that the Northerners 'were flagging in the bright sun'. He did not do that for the Mordor Orcs.



You are wrong. A great press of Eomers 'first foes' are between him and Harlond, while 'new foes' cut Eomer off from Imrahil. It is realized that the 'Corsairs' are actually allies. Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.
The new foes include Orcs which are later routed along with the Variags etc. Read the passages.

First off, we don't know that the term "Uruk-hai" doesn't include Orc-men. Second of all, "half" modifies orc, not man. There is simply no way to be wrong about that.
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Aragorn, of whom you note: "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs", does not call the Uruk-hai "half-orcs", he calls the 'goblin-faced men' "half-orcs". Do you disagree with him?


Both circumstances are quite the same. It is not the sun that broke either group. It is the fact that they were being charged down upon. Indeed supply the first part of the passage:
Rather frightening...
"...and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them"; if it was the sun that caused the terror did it also kill them? And Orcs are not singled out from the hosts of Mordor, which included more than Orcs. Were Men terrified of and killed by the sun as well?

You do not bend over from the shoulders, you bend over from the waist. (The texts notes they ran with "bowed backs"
They put on speed because of the charging cavalry, not because the sun goes down.

No it is a misconstrual (and now seems quite deliberate). JRRT used 'bright sun' line for the Northerners. You took the line and transferred it to the Mordor Orcs. That is not an interpretation.
Because they dont straighten themselves up until then. The Isengarders run with their backs bowed. It is very difficult and uncomfortable to run bent over from the waist but with the neck craned so that your head is up.

Then you believe that "half-orc" describes a man instead of an Orc. There is no arguing with such a belief.
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Half-orcs is used for 'goblin-faced men'.
That is what Aragorn of whom you note: "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs" says. Answer the question: Do you disagree with him?
 
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Re: Re: reply (part 2)

The context is a large quote from the books. Here is the fullest description of Eomer's "first foes" that I can come up with: Eomer's "first foes" appear to all be Haradrim, echoed by the statement
And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse;
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As for the new foes which cut Eomer off from Imrahil, they are described pretty clearly: There is no mention of Orcs here, although there is an explicit statement that these were the forces which cut off Imrahil from Eomer.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The "new foes" were the 'Orcs, Variags, and troll-men'.
They were fighting well enough to cut off Imrahil from Eomer. Try looking at the full context.
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The "new foes" were the "Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." Orcs were never described as being a part of this force, but thanks for the context tip.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I see no mention of the foot troops being Men. Perhaps they were all ghosts. We already know that Morgul had Orcs, that is where Gorbag was from.
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We don't know that Morgul sent any of it's Orcs to Pelannor, or that it had any Orc troops beyond Gorbag's 80+. We do know that Morgul sent men, as in horsemen. The description of the troops behind the horsemen does not seem reminiscent to me of a description of Orcs. Orcs in the Morgul brigade is your unproven assumption.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The see above the hosts of Mordor. See above the 'new foes'.
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Done and done. No mention of Orcs, plenty of mention of men. Next?


I'm trying to follow your logic. Questions:
1) If Tolkien only describes the Isengarders as being more sun tolerant than the Northerners, are they also quicker and hardier?
2) Is there any chance that the Isengarders are quicker and hardier than the Mordorians because the Isengarders are not suffering from the effects of the sun, while the Mordorians are?
If I knew your answer to these questions I wouldn't be forced to put words in your mouth.


Isengard may have more dealings with the Shire than Mordor, but the Mouth suggests that Mordor is plenty familiar with the land and it's inhabitants
spy from the little rat-land of the Shire-nay; do not start! We know it well
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Ugluk is a modest intellect- he had no problem figuring out what a Halfling was. The Mouth was a less modest intellect- he could instantly recognize someone from the Shire. The Nazgul were will-less intellects, they accomplished the task as well. There is no indication that any of the combined forces of evil were upset with the term "halfling". There is evidence that the Tracker and Soldier were upset with the term "a sort of small dwarf-Man". That is my point.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Inaccurate. You are neglecting the Adunaic 'uruk, c.goblin, orc' from Lowdham's Report.
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Uruk-hai is a Black Speech term, not an Adunaic one. We do not know any connotation of the Adunaic term "uruk", specifically whether it was used only to refer to Soldier orcs in the same sense as BS uruk, or whether it referred to orcs in general, as per it's definition. Again, the Uruk/Uruks/Uruk-hai which appears in The Lord of the Rings is a Black Speech term. This is what I was defining. I was, as far as I am aware, quite accurate in describing how Tolkien wrote about these terms between 1942 and 1948.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Of course you dont. That is because you cant. In fact you can not even provide evidence that they were believed to be involved.
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I don't because I am under no delusion about what actually happened at Cirith Ungol- Gorbag fought Shagrat. Please don't put words in my mouth. I think I have provided evidence of how the Cirith Ungol affair could have been attributed to Isengarders, via the earlier Grishnakh-Ugluk affair.


Sam was believed to be a great Elf. He was not a great Elf. I think the Cirith Ungol mess could have been believed to have been caused by Isengarders, even though it was in fact not. As for Frodo, a "short" man would have been simpler and more accurate. There is nothing dwarven about Hobbits other than their height. Attributing dwarvish characteristics to Frodo is a mistake, as is calling Sam an Elf.


The Dark Lord probably also knew that the Isengarders referred to themselves as "Uruk-hai, ... the servants of Saruman", due to the fact that Ugluk proudly said this while addressing Grishnakh. The Dark Lord probably also knows that Ugluk slew some of the troops that tried taking the Hobbits to Mordor. Everything fits into place then.


Shagrat survived and knew that the non-existant survivors of Gorbag's brigade posed no threat to Mordor. The two spies did. I don't think a report from Shagrat would have been concerned at all with Gorbag's lot. I have remotely suggested Isengarders via the Grishnakh-Ugluk link, you just choose to ignore it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Even more telling is the fact that Gamling says that the Hybrids of Saruman can abide the sun, and then a few lines later the self-styled Uruk-hai say they also abide the sun.
If you would like to discount the statements of Treebeard, Gamling, and Legolas to prove your point, feel free. The quickest way to prove your point would be to discount Tolkien's characters altogether and write your own novel.


Was the sun bright in the case of the Northerners, yet less so in the case of the Mordor Orcs? Did they have their own personal raincloud following them around? Running with your head down is slow. That is a fact. The Mordor Orcs do not run as fast as the Isengarders. That is a fact. The Mordor Orcs don't lift their heads until the sun goes down. That is a fact. When the Mordor Orcs lift their heads (after the sun goes down) they run faster. That is a fact. It takes very little "reading" on my part to connect the dots here.


I'm quite right, actually. I did more than read the passages, I posted them. Now we can both read them.


The description at Pelannor is that darkness is removed and the Mordoreans flee in terror. Once they are fleeing in terror they are killed by the Rohirrim. Orcs in fact are singled out from the host of Mordor: These are three consecutive descriptions of the forces of Mordor arrayed against Rohan. There are no intervening passages which describe Mordor forces fighting the Rohirrim. First we get the Rohirrim attacking from the North. Then the forces of Mordor facing the Rohirrim are routed. Next we hear that the Northern half of the Pelannor is overrun, orcs are fleeing, and the Rohirrim can go wherever they want. Up to this point there is no mention of Mordor men anywhere. It appears that all that the Rohirrim have fought are Orcs. It is the Orcs alone who flee when the darkness is removed. Men don't come into the equation until the Haradrim are mentioned being south of the Road. They seem to be largely unfought, and there is no indication that they were ever fleeing. So no, Men were not terrified by the sun. That is a particularly Orcish characteristic, unless the Orcs are Isengarders.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You do not bend over from the shoulders, you bend over from the waist. (The texts notes they ran with "bowed backs"
They put on speed because of the charging cavalry, not because the sun goes down.
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Next time you see someone running around bent at the waist, be sure to let me know. We could take a picture of it- it'd probably be worth some money. If Tolkien intended that the Mordorians put on speed because of the cavalry, then he sure picked a strange way of describing it:
Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.
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Mentions of cavalry: 0. Mentions of sun: 1.


The same bright sun was shining on the Isengarders, Northerners, and Mordorians, so I think what I have done is entirely legitimate. The Isengarders run with bowed backs, not with their heads down. The Mordoreans apparently run with both, until the sun sets. I never said that the Mordoreans were running around bent at the waist. That was your idea.


If Aragorn thinks that "men" and "orcs" are the same thing, then yes I do disagree with him. If he thinks "half-orcs" is a broad hybrid term, which includes the subclass of men with goblin faces then I agree with him. Gamling's quote which started this debate was "half-orcs and goblin-men". These two terms are clearly meant to refer to different creatures. "Goblin-men" is a perfect match for "men with goblin faces", thus leaving Gamling's "half-orcs" unaccounted for.
 
Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)


Orcs were part of the force that cut Imrahil off from Eomer, because when Imrahil counter attacked he drove the troll-men, Variags, and orcs before him. Did the Orcs just magically appear? (Of course what I am actually waiting for is the reasonable explanation for them, which I would probably agree with). Obviously they were fighting in the sun and well enough to cut off Imrahil from Eomer. If they were not there they could not be driven forth.

Your reasoning is specious at best.

In 'The Siege of Gondor' it is reported that:
"A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall."
Later Gandalf says:
"...for the Rammas is breached far and wide, and soon the host of Morgul will enter in at many points. And I came chiefly to say this. Soon there will be battle on the fields. A sortie must be made ready. Let it be of mounted men. In them lies our brief hope, for in one thing only is the enemy still poorly provided: he has few horsemen."
Then later:
"'The enemy,' men murmured. 'The dike is down. Here they come pouring through the breaches! And they carry torches, it seems. Where are our own folk?'"
And then:
"Now the main retreat was scarcely two furlongs distant. Out of the gloom behind a small company of horsemen galloped, all that was left of the rearguard. Once again they turned at bay, facing the oncoming lines of fire. Then suddenly there was a tumult of fierce cries. Horsemen of the enemy swept up. The lines of fire became flowing torrents, file upon file of Orcs bearing flames, and wild Southron men with red banners, shouting with harsh tongues, surging up, overtaking the retreat. And with a piercing cry out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, the Nazgûl stooping to the kill."
The host of Morgul is joined by the Haradrim, they breach the Rammas, then we are told what the host consists of Horsemen and file upon file of Orcs, kind of like the description of the host that issued from Morgul in 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol' (rank upon rank of black figures led by cavalry).
Then we have from 'The Black Gate Opens':
"But Gandalf and Aragorn rode with the vanguard to the entrance of Morgul Vale and looked on the evil city.
It was dark and lifeless; for the Orcs and lesser creatures of Mordor that had dwelt there had been destroyed in battle, and the Nazgûl were abroad. Yet the air of the valley was heavy with fear and enmity. Then they broke the evil bridge and set red flames in the noisome fields and departed."
Orcs in the host of Morgul, and more than Gorbag's patrol. Imagine that.

Done and done. No mention of Orcs, plenty of mention of men. Next?
[Aragil previously posted: The legions of Morgul are mentioned twice, but I can find no evidece that they contained Orcs.]
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The legions of Morgul were made up of Orcs, see above. (Actually as far as I can recall, JRRT only uses the word "legion" in reference to Orcs). There are your Orcs.

You are grasping at straws. This has nothing to do with the issue of 'sun tolerance'. There is nothing "forcing" you to put words in my mouth. The only thing I recall saying about 'quick hardy' is what JRRT said.
Isengard may have more dealings with the Shire than Mordor, but the Mouth suggests that Mordor is plenty familiar with the land and it's inhabitants
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Mordor is plenty familiar? Try 'Hunt for the Ring', for example: "Now Sauron had never paid heed to the "Halflings," even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account, both because Gollum indeed had no certain knowledge himself, and because what be knew he falsified."


The Mouth of Sauron is not a lowely tracker or simple fighting orc.
As for what the Nazgul knew, try 'Hunt for the Ring'

There is no indication that any of the combined forces of evil were upset with the term "halfling".
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Try 'Hunt for the Ring', for example:: "Gollum would not know the term "Hobbit," which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would probably not use "Halfling" since he was one himself, and Hobbits disliked the name. That is why the Black Riders seem to have had two main pieces of information only to go on: Shire and Baggins."
There is evidence that the Tracker and Soldier were upset with the term "a sort of small dwarf-Man". That is my point.
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No there is not. They were upset with the whole situation. Not a specific 'term'.


You wrote: "The implication is that between 1942 and 1948 JRRT had no intention of using the word "Uruk" in any form to refer to soldier Orcs of Mordor."
The Lowdham Report is from that period and can not refer to Isengarders (who did not exist in the Second Age).

Which words did I put in your mouth?
Again there is no evidence to support your supposition. Your supposition is pure speculation.

What "dwarvish characteristics" were attributed to Frodo?

Sam was believed to be a 'great Elf' because JRRT tells us that is how he was seen. It was not a mistake to report it. JRRT does not tell us that the Morgul Orcs or Ungol Orcs were seen as Isengarders. In fact Sam notes that it would be dangerous to wear the Morgul gear after the events in the Tower.
It is not a mistake to call Frodo a "small sort of dwarf-man", and it does not imply that he was a Dwarf or a Man. That is an accurate description for someone who does not know what a hobbit or a halfling is (and would not even know those terms). It is not a mistake to report it.
The Uruk-hai involved were from Morgul and Ungol. That is what was seen and reported. No mistake.

No, your 'probablies' are pure speculation and not based on the text. The text says what Sauron knew about this.
However, even if Sauron did know why would he go spreading it all over Mordor? And why would Sauron not know that Saruman's Uruk-hai had all been slaughtered?

1). The text does not say that Shagrat knew none of Gorbag's boys got out.
2). The text does not say or imply that none of Gorbag's boys got out. It does say that none of Shagrat's got out.
3). The Nazgul who comes there does not know that none escaped with the prisoner (nor do the troops that arrive shortly after).
4). I ignore your remote suggestion because you have _no_ evidence to back it up. You are engaging in pure speculation.
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Treebeard is not making a statement he is asking a speculative question. Gamling speaks half-orcs and goblin-men bred by Saruman, he does not attribute either appellation to the Uruk-hai (you are the one doing that) who are directly called Orcs throughout. Legolas says it is unusual for Orcs to be out in the Sun and it is. How am I discounting anything they say?
JRRT never says Saruman's Uruk-hai are half-orcs. No character ever says that Saruman's Uruk-hai are half-orcs. Aragorn does call the 'goblin-faced men' half-orcs (you seem to give more credence to Gamling than Aragorn). Pippin mentions 'half-orcs and ruffians' in the Shire. These are not Saruman's Uruk-hai (who are dead). Saruman's Uruk-hai are called Orcs, Goblins, Uruk-hai and Uruks directly.

Running with you back bowed is slow. Of course Orcs did so.
Running with your back bowed and your head up is uncomfortable at the least.
Why did the Isengarders run with their backs bowed?
Two reasons are given for the Morder Orcs not running as fast as the Isengarders: a 'plan' , or 'not being as quick and hardy'. Nothing is said about the sun.
Fact: JRRT said the Northerners were 'flagging in the sun', he did not say that of the Mordor Orcs.
Perhaps the Mordor Orcs had their heads down because the sun was in their eyes.

<snip of point addressed in above post>

The description at Pelannor is that darkness is removed and the Mordoreans flee in terror. Once they are fleeing in terror they are killed by the Rohirrim.
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The "hosts of Mordor" are fleeing in terror from the Rohirrim. Not from the Sun. The "hosts of Mordor" include more than just orcs. They wail, flee and die because of the Rohirrim. Not because of the sun. You are picking and choosing.


The Orcs are singled out later.
The Orcs are said to be fleeing from the Rohirrim "like herds before the hunters". They are not said to be fleeing from the sun.

The text does not say that the Orcs alone fled. It says the hosts of Mordor fled. The hosts of Mordor include more than Orcs. It _later_ (the next chapter and later in the battle) specifically singles out the orcs who flee from the Rohirrim, not the sun. But even if the text specifically said 'the orcs of the hosts of Mordor fled in terror', it would still be the Rohirrim they were fleeing from, not the sun. You are picking and choosing.

This is out of context. Try the prior paragragh:
"Horsemen, riding very swiftly, had indeed been sighted: still far behind, but gaining on the Orcs, gaining on them like a tide over the flats on folk straying in a quicksand."
This is why they put on speed.

<snip of point adressed above>
 
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Re (1): Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)

Honestly, if I knew what you were looking for, and that you would agree with it, I'd post it. The text describes the forces seperating Imrahil from Eomer very explicitly. There is no mention of orcs. There is not even a mention of 'legion' or anything else vague that could be interpreted as orcs. There are Easterling, Southrons, Variags, and Far-haradrim. No possibility of Orcs. These are the forces that are sent to separate Eomer and Imrahil, a force which fights reasonably well. Later, elements of this force are mentioned as being driven Eastward by Imrahil. My interpretation is that they are driven along with orcs that had been routing from the outset. Since there is no mention of Orcs being sent to separate Eomer and Imrahil, I believe this is a good interpretation.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Your reasoning is specious at best.
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Your posting style is impolite, at best. If you think your continuous insults somehow enhance your contribution to these boards, then you are sadly mistaken. Facts like Orcs being described in the Morgul host are welcome contributions. Insults about my reasoning skills are not.


Had you posted this earlier it would have saved some empty posting on both are parts. We are agreed now, the Legion of Morgul has Orcs in it, and was very aggressive prior to the charge of the Rohirrim. Now let's look at how they fare post-dawn: The legions of Morgul come from under the wall. This does not speak of any particular prowess on their part. Later they are driven into by the footmen of Gondor- not necessarily routing, but not showing any prowess either. The matter stands- Men fighting for Mordor are described in several passages as regrouping and fighting reasonably well. The Orcs are not. The implication is that the sunlight has broken their fighting ability, else why the deference between men and orcs? No such difference exists between the men and orcs fighting for Isengard. This, along with the slow performance of Grishnakh's band and the numerous comments by characters that imply only hybrid orcs are sun tolerant, makes me think that Sauron's Orcs (who are non-hybrids) are not any more sun tolerant than any other Orcs who has been around since the first age. I am saying that Sauron's orcs are like other orcs in this respect. You are saying that they are different. It is up to you to come up with evidence that they are different. So far I have not seen anything compelling. The battle at Pelannor fields does not have the orcs behaving any different then they did at say, the Disaster of Gladden fields. All the descriptions of the Orcs at Pelannor during the day either have them routing, or being driven into. None of these descriptions are like the descriptions of the (sun-tolerant) Haradrim and Easterlings, who rally and fight. Where is the evidence that these Orcs were more sun tolerant than their First and Second Age counterparts?
 
Re (2): Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You are grasping at straws. This has nothing to do with the issue of 'sun tolerance'. There is nothing "forcing" you to put words in my mouth.
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Thank you for again not answering my question. This has everything to do with sun-tolerance. I think that the reason the Isengarders appear to be 'stronger and hardier' than the Mordor orcs is because the Mordor Orcs are being adversely effected by the sun. The description of the Mordor Orcs lifting their heads and putting on speed after the sun goes down supports me in this. Your logic seems to be that the greater strength and hardiness of the Isengarders has nothing to do with sun-tolerance. I have several times extended this logic. This is not putting words in your mouth, this is taking the words from your mouth and seeing where it leads. If you would answer my question then I wouldn't even have to see where your logic leads- you would be telling me.


There is a big difference between Hunt for the Ring and the later events in Mordor. That difference is experience. Before the Hunt for the Ring Mordor knew nothing of the Shire. Afterwards, as the Mouth says, Mordor knows it well. The words of the soldier are post Hunt for the Ring. At this point Mordor knew the Shire well. Grishnakh had no problem recognizing halflings, the logical conclusion would be that the tracker and the Soldier wouldn't either.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
No there is not. They were upset with the whole situation. Not a specific 'term'.
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They were upset with an unclear order from the Higher Ups. They don't seem to think any of the described culprits were particularly likely. Neither do I.


I was speaking in the context of the Black Speech term Uruk. Adunaic is a different language. Doubtless the two words spring from a common root in Quenya or Common Elvish, but they are not the same term. Whatever Tolkien had in mind for Adunaic has no effect on what he had in mind for the Black Speech, which is what we're discussing.


There is evidence that earlier Isengard Uruk-hai had attacked servants of Sauron in order to steal away halflings. This is from the text. This is evidence.


It was a mistake to call Sam an great Elf. It doesn't matter whether he was believed to be an great Elf or not. That belief was in error. Frodo is given dwarvish characteristics in the term "a sort of dwarf-Man". The term "dwarf" is an adjective modifying "Man". This gives the "Man" dwarvish characteristics. Clear enough?
Some common Dwarven characteristics: Short, beard, stocky. Only short applies to Frodo, hence it would be easier to call him a "short-man", or a "half-sized man=halfling". Dwarf-man is inaccurate. That the Orcs of Ungol and Morgul were Uruk-hai is your assumption. It does not have much bearing on my argument.


Ugluk told Grishnakh that he was a member of the fighting Uruk-hai, and that they were servants of Saruman. Ugluk killed troops loyal to Mordor in order to take the halflings to Isengard. None of this is speculation- it is fact based on the text. I speculated that this was pertinent information which Grishnakh would have communicated on. Gandalf agrees with me:
the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants
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Obviously the Dark Lord knows that his own troops were opposed by Isengarders, else how would he know that they were going to Isengard. Ugluk says that the Isengarders are the fighting Uruk-hai, servants of Saruman. In all probability this is how Grishnakh would have described them. Feel free to post a reasonable alternative. I'd imagine that "against the will of his own servants" was a reference to his servants being killed by the Isengarders. This seems like a reasonable conclusion based on the text. Perhaps you could offer a different reasonable conclusion?
As far as what Sauron would want his underlings to know, it seems they all know too much. Grishnakh has personal knowledge of the Ring. Gorbag knows something 'has slipped'. The tracker tells the soldier to
‘Go to your filthy Shriekers, and may they freeze the flesh off you! If the enemy doesn’t get them first. They’ve done in Number One, I’ve heard, and I hope it’s true!’
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I seriously doubt any of this is information that Sauron would want to be generally known to his troops. The fact is that they learn about this stuff, whether Sauron wills it or no.

1) Shagrat seems plenty confident to go out of the tower, even though he is injured. He does not say that he thinks all of Gorbag's men are dead, nor does he say that he suspects some are still living. His actions, however, support the former.
2) HoME IX, p. 18
His first draft ('A') of the new chapter extended as far as the point where Sam, descending the path from the Cleft, sees the two orcs shot down as they ran from the gateway of the Tower
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HoME IX, p. 23-24
Two archers right in the gateway - probably those who shot down the escaping orcs - lay pierced from behind with spears.
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HoME IX, p. 24
He overhears the orc reporting to Shagrat. Shagrat is lying wounded by dead body of Gorbag. All Gorbag's men have been killed, but they have killed all Shagrat's but these two.
Click to expand...
HoME IX, p. 24
Gorbag coveted the mithril coat, but pretended that they must search for the missing spy first. He sent his men to capture wall and gate, and demanded mithril coat.
Click to expand...
Nothing in the published work contradicts this. Shagrat's men are still shot down by archers, but here we see that those archers were sent to guard the gates from any messenger being sent out. They were not covering a retreat by the remainder of Gorbag's lot. We even get an explicit statement "All Gorbag's men have been killed".
3) The Nazgul who came there does not appear to be the source of the rumor, as he never encountered a great Elf or a sort of dwarf-Man.
4) I provide evidence from the text which backs up my speculation. You choose to ignore it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Treebeard makes a declarative statement: If you have any evidence to refute this, please provide it. Otherwise accept that it is Saruman's Orcs and not Sauron's which can endure the sun. Treebeard later speculates that Saruman has been crossing Orcs with Men. This is confirmed by Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring. If you have any evidence to refute Treebeard's supposition, please provide it.
Aragorn says that with dawn will come hope. Gamling says that Half-orcs, goblin-men, and wild-men will not be affected by the dawn. He seems to be describing all of Saruman's forces. You seem to think he is not describing the Uruk-hai, which means he is neglecting the majority of Saruman's forces. The Uruk-hai later claim that they care not for the dawn, indicating that they are the half-orcs which Gamling describes. This is entirely self consistent.
There is no evidence that the goblin-men consider themselves to be anything other than Uruk-hai. In which case Pippin's comments in the Shire could in fact be regarding Uruk-hai. Even Robert Foster, in his guide to Middle-earth recognizes that. If you can provide text refuting that, then please do so.


Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Running with you back bowed is slow. Of course Orcs did so.
Click to expand...
Really? I thought the way Orcs ran was quite fast. Isengarders are never mentioned with their heads down. Why would the sun not be in their eyes? Why would the Isengarders run with their heads up if it was so darned uncomfortable? Why would JRRT mention the sun going down if it has no effect on the Mordor lot?


The "hosts of Mordor" referred to here is never described as anything but Orcs. There is absolutely no reference to men. I am "picking" every single mention of Mordor troops there are here, and "choosing" to post them all. If I have missed one, please provide it. Otherwise accept the fact that I posted it all and there was no mention of men.


The description of the Orcs is the only one given for the "hosts of Mordor". They are not "singled out". They are it. As far as I know, the only time Orcs are ever described as fleeing in terror of the sun is the first time it appears when Fingolfin marches into Beleriand. Otherwise Orcs will not flee in terror of it. They will, however, be adversely affected by it, and the will route where otherwise they might stand and fight- like the Haradrim and Easterlings who are at Pelannor. This description is entirely consistent with Sauron's Orcs being affected by the sun as they were in the first and second age. This is not what happens to Saruman's Orcs.


I "picked" every passage available. If you think that there is a passage which describes men among these "hosts of Mordor" then please provide it. Otherwise stop implying that I am stacking the dice- it's insulting.


If this is why they put on speed, why mention the sunset at all? Why not have the horsemen sighted and then the orcs immediately put on speed? What possible reason could there be for inserting the sun reference?
 
Re: Re (1): Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)



The reasonable explanation is that the Orcs who had been earlier driven away by the Rohirrim, toward the river, regrouped when the reserves were sent in from over the river and thus were part of the forces that cut off Imrahil from Eomer. That is why the orcs were there to be driven away by Imrahil along with the troll-men and Variags. If they had been routed by the sun, why would they return? The sun was shining the whole morning through. The fight lasted a long time. In any event Orcs were there as part of those forces that cut off Imrahil and were later driven away.

I am not insulting your reasoning skills. I think your arguments suggesting such things as the legions (foot) of Morgul consisted of only men because it does not say they were orcs there (even though it does not say they were men either) and when Gorbag and Co. is pointed out trying to suggest that they were the only Orcs at Morgul, are absurd (perhaps even intentionally?). You have many good arguments, some of which I even agree with. But I am finding such things deliberately provocative. I may be wrong on the deliberate part. But that is how I am beginning to see it.


As the quote you posted said the fighting waxed furious. It also lasted a long time. The legions of Morgul did not flee the sun. Not even when driven against by the footmen of Gondor.

There is no such implication. The Orcs fled because they were taken by surprise. They did not flee the sun.
Do you think that if the sun had come out and they had not been attacked they would have fled?


JRRT gives two reasons for the Mordor Orcs 'slowness' a 'plan', or 'being less quick and hardy'.
Neither of those says anything about the sun.
If the Mordor Soldier Orcs were just as effected by the sun as the Northerners then why were they not described as 'flagging in the sun'?
As a side note though we both think the Isengarders had some 'man' blood in them, it is not actually a proven assertion. Remember JRRT still treats it as a 'speculation' very late.

<snip of part addressed above>
 
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Proposition

I think we're going in circles here. You seem confident in your argument, I am certainly confident in mine. In the mean time much MB space is being used with out much progress, and it appears that anyone else who might have input in the matter is staying away from the thread. How about this: we have a poll- were Sauron's great Soldier-Orcs more sun-resistant than their predecessors? We could have three options:
1)Sauron's soldier Orcs were as sun-tolerant as Isengard's.
2)Sauron's soldier Orcs were less sun-tolerant than the Isengarders, but more sun-tolerant than their predecessors. (I assume your position)
3)Sauron's soldier Orcs were no more sun-tolerant than their predecessors. (My position)

We could each build our case privately and then submit them to a moderator, who would post them both in the poll-thread simultaneously. The two of us would not be allowed to post in the poll-thread until the voting on the poll closed- say a week or two. Then we each post a single summary (10000 characters) stating what we agree with and disagree with of the points that other posters make. We then both abide by the decision of that poll for any future discussions on this thread. This would save us a whole lot of wrangling and space-hogging on this thread. It might even bring in some fresh view points on the matter. What do you think?
 
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