Uruks vs. Uruk-hai

[Confusticated]

Posted by jallan
Whatever form Gorbag here used for the plural of Uruk we would expect to be rendered to Sam's understanding as the normal Common Speech form of the plural of Uruk, which would then be represented in the published text as English Uruks.

If you don't mind a little side question from an observer - why wouldn't this be "orcs"?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by jallan
[Tar-Elenion posted:
Besides the Mordorean Uruk-hai dont seem to have much problem with the sun either.]

I suspect they do, but that there aren't many bright, sunny days in Mordor. At this time Sauron's darkness has spread well ouside of Mordor. It is probably always rather dark and gloomy within Mordor, at least north-western Mordor, under a veil of volcanic cloud.

In the Uruk-hai chapter the Northerners complain about the Sun, and there is a (seeming) connection between the Northerners lack of endurance and the sun:

The Uruk-hai:
"In the afternoon Uglúk's troop overtook the Northerners. They were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolling out."

Prior to this:

The Uruk-hai
Either because they were quicker and hardier, or because of some plan of Grishnákh's, the Isengarders gradually passed through the Orcs of Mordor, and Grishnákh's folk closed in behind.

The Sun is not mentioned.

Some note that after:

The Uruk-hai:
The Isengarders began to run with a redoubled pace that astonished Pippin, a terrific spurt it seemed for the end of a race. Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.

While the setting of the Sun may have helped 'invigorate' the Mordorean Orcs, we also know that the Riders were gaining on them:

The Uruk-hai:
'Maggots!' jeered the Isengarders. 'You're cooked. The Whiteskins will catch you and eat you. They're coming!'
A cry from Grishnákh showed that this was not mere jest. Horsemen, riding very swiftly, had indeed been sighted: still far behind, but gaining on the Orcs, gaining on them like a tide over the flats on folk straying in a quicksand.

This was posted between aragil and I earlier in the thread:

aragil wrote:
Now, turning to the orcs of Mordor:
'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men (Olog-hai? I thought trolls could not be bred with men!) and Variags and Orcs that hated the sunlight.'
(from 'The Battle of the Pelennor Fields', p.150 of my edition of RotK)

For right now I'll ignore the reference to troll-men, and focus on what is happening to the orcs. These are the orcs of Mordor which were sent to besiege Minas Tirith. I think it is reasonable to assume that this huge army includes any sun-resistant strains which Sauron might have posessed. Yet here Tolkien mentions that they hate sunlight in the midst of their rout. Why? It seems by the very fact that he mentions it that the sun is having an effect on the orcs. I acknowledge that this is not as direct a statement as some would like, but I think that in the greater context of the works it indicates that Sauron's breeds do not do so well in the sun (as Treebeard stated above). Before anybody uses it against me, I am aware that Treebeard says Saruman's orcs hate the sun, and here Tolkien says that Sauron's troops also hate the sun. But to say this is evidence that the two breeds are the same is to totally ignore the context of the statements. At Helm's deep the Uruk-hai claim that they care not for the sun. The next morning they are routed, the sun is brightly shining (it is described glinting off the gear of the riders), but there is no indication that the sun is having any effect on the orcs. At the Pelannor fields the orcs are given a darkness by Sauron. When the darkness is blown aside, Tolkien says that they hate the sun as they are being routed. I think that I am supported by the text here when I say that the reason Tolkien mentions their hatred of the sun is because they are affected by it, whereas the troops of Isengard are not!!

Tar-Elenion wrote:
Nobody said the two breeds were the same. I think those posting here have all noted differences. Yes the sun is shining when Sauron's troops are routed. But interestingly enough, the Sun is shining for quite some time before that. The sun starts shinnig when the Rohirrim charge and start routing the Mordorians. The sun is shinning when the Witch King comes to slay Theoden, and be slain (his arrival causes a great shadow). The sun is shing after he is slain, (Merry stands blinking in the sunlight). At mid-morning when the day begins to turn against Gondor the wind is blowing, the rain is flying the sun is shining and the air is clear. Mordor is winning, and all hope is lost because the watchmen see afar the Corsairs of Umbar coming. The hosts of Mordor are enheartened and come yelling to the onset. All this while the sun is shining. Only when the Mordorians realize that the Ships are filled with their enemy, do they become bewildered and filled with dread. It does not make any mention of the Orcs being cowed by the sun. The sun did not rout them, surprise and fear did. We know they hated it, and as you pointed out so do Saruman's. Still no proof that Sauron's Orcs were any more effected that Saruman's.

There is another bit on page 16 in this thread.
Saruman's Uruk-hai may have been able to withstand the Sun better than Sauron's. But I dont see that Sauron's Uruk-hai were greatly effected either.

 

[aragil]

Further Sun Evidence

In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

Black Orcs, great strength. No mention of sun tolerance.

'Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?' said Gimli. 'Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun. Yet these have done so,' said Legolas.

Is Legolas ignorant of Orcs? Or has he just conveniently forgotten about the 544 years that Uruks have been running amock? (Or, are the Uruks of Mordor actually susceptible to sunlight?)

He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that: he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!

Orc/Men hybrids. Sun tolerance. Implication that the two are related. Further implication that non-hybrids will not be sun-tolerant. Also Middle-earth history: all Orcs up until the time of Saruman have not been able to abide the sun. Has Treebeard been sleeping the past 544 years?

But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,' said Gamling. 'And neither will the wild men of the hills. Do you not hear their voices?

More Orc/Men hybrids. More sun tolerance. Implication that this is a new invention, not one that has been around for 544 years. Note also, the three categories here neatly coincide with the three categories that Merry reports to see exiting Isengard:

endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed.

Here the match would be:
half-orcs=endless lines of marching Orcs,
orc-men=men with goblin-faces,
and wild men of the hills=battalions of men.
Note also that Tar-Elenion's reading of the passage has Gamling totally discount the Uruk-hai in his speech, in spite of the facts that:
1) Tar-Elenion's argument is that all Soldier Orcs, both those of Mordor and those of Isengard are sun resistant.
2) The Uruk-hai themselves claim to be sun-resistant, and apparently make up the majority of Saruman's forces.

Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.

Saruman did cross-breed orcs and men! No mention here of Sun tolerance, but there is nice corroboration with Treebeard's speculation that Saruman's crossing of orcs and men would produce sun-tolerant orcs. Again, Treebeard notes that Saruman's orcs can withstand sunlight. He then speculates that in order to get this sun-tolerance Saruman might have crossed Orcs and Men. Later we learn that Saruman indeed crossed Orcs and Men. Wouldn't it be odd if this crossing had no effect on their sun-tolerance, especially given Gamling's comment that specifically the hybrids of Saruman are unaffected by daylight?
Also, we now have more terms to equate to Saruman's army list. The equation runs thus: Gamling's quote, Merry's account, Morgoth's Ring:
half-orcs=endless lines of marching Orcs=Men-Orcs
orc-men=men with goblin-faces=Orc-men
wild men of the hills=Dunlendings=(not mentioned)
Notice that if the half-orcs above are also Uruk-hai, then we've accounted for all of the sun-tolerant troops under Saruman's command.
Note also that at this point we have many quotes attesting to the sun-tolerance of Saruman's Orcs specifically, and exactly 0 quotes attesting to Uruk son-tolerance in general.
Take into account the above quotes which Tar-Elenion has kindly re-posted, and there are even statements which could be interpreted as showing Mordor Uruks to be not sun-tolerant (as Treebeard implies). In fact, Tar-Elenion's theory on the Lugburz Ape/Mountain Maggot/Saruman's Uruk-hai race sets up an interesting equation:
Uruk-hai: stronger, hardier than Lugburz Apes, not more sun tolerant
Uruk-hai: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, not stronger or hardier
Lugburz Apes: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, yet less strong and hardy.
As I said before, what a strange mix of Orcs!

jallan- Thank you for at least admitting the slimmest of possibilities that my reading is valid!! That is all I want. I don't expect to swing anybody's view on this, just to demonstrate why I think the way I do. Your acknowledgement (however slim) is very much appreciated, although it may undermine the legendary contentiousness of this thread.
That being said, I do of course have some points to make. First of all, regarding Sam's ignorance of the term Uruk-hai: I think that is debatable if you assume that Sauron's Uruks are in fact also Uruk-hai. Following the advent of the Uruk-hai, there is an immediate swelling in Orc activity- the peopling of Moria with Orcs and the abduction of Celebrian, the battle at the fields of Celebrant (the establishment of the Kingdom of Rohan), and various incursions into Eriador, culminating with the Dwarf-Orc war of 2766-2769. I detailed this all in my post here (please ignore my ignorant statement about 'Ringwraiths' being an anglicization of Nazgul- obviously I've learned some things on this thread). What this timeline demonstrates to me is that Hobbits are familiar with Uruks through the 'war' with Golfimbul. If these Uruks were actually Uruk-hai like those at Helm's Deep, then we could imagine they'd mention this fact at every full stop. According to this timeline and the assumption that Uruks=Uruk-hai, every Hobbit child that goes in for histories (i.e. Sam) should know the term Uruk-hai.
Other little points (again, I hate to be contentious, but you might find earlier information interesting)
Gorbag's lot was taken care of- the two Orcs who shot Lagduf and Muzgash are later found by Sam, see my posts here , here and here , as well as HoME IX, p. 24. Even if they weren't taken care of, you'd think Higher Ups would have their priorities straight. What seems more important, a few stray Orcs, or a great Elf spy? In any case, we do know that the Higher Ups are capable of a much better description than "a small dwarf-man":

from the Black Gate Opens
Pippin who stood behind Prince Imrahil sprang forward with a cry of grief.
‘Silence!’ said Gandalf sternly, thrusting him back; but the Messenger laughed aloud.
‘So you have yet another of these imps with you!’ he cried. ‘What use you find in them I cannot guess; but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly. Still, I thank him, for it is plain that this brat at least has seen these tokens before, and it would be vain for you to deny them now.’
...
‘Dwarf-coat, elf-cloak, blade of the downfallen West, and spy from the little rat-land of the Shire-nay; do not start! We know it well

This is certainly a more accurate assesment than "small Dwarf-man". What epiphane caused the change in tone?

As for Shagrat and Grishnakh, I really feel that short in relation to Ugluk and large in relation to Snaga II could easily result in the two being the same height. In any case, they both have those long arms reaching almost to the ground- certainly a strikingly similar description, in my book at least.

How thin is my argument? I honestly believe it is a matter of opinion. Looking at the history of the terms, we see that in 1944 Tolkien had three separate groups of Orcs in mind: goblins, Black Orcs, and Uruk-hai. In the published work there are still three reasonably separate groups of Orcs- plain Orcs, Soldiers of Mordor, and Soldiers of Isengard, respectively. The soldiers of Mordor are usually referred to as Uruks, those of Isengard are usually referred to as Uruk-hai. They were different in their conception, and they remain different in the published work (see sun tolerance). The only question is whether or not Tolkien intended for the soldier Orcs of Mordor to also be Uruk-hai, in which case his definition for the term Uruk-hai would have had to change from it's conception in 1942. It's of worth to note at this point that the first two times JRRT used the terms Uruks, he italicized (not to be confused with anglicized) them- these are the entries on the last two pages of The Land of Shadow. I think this is interesting- it looks to me like Tolkien was really dealing with something new at this point, rather than just the Uruk-hai which he had been describing for the previous 6 years.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

I wonder if the last years of Denethor I all took place at night.

'Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?' said Gimli. 'Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun. Yet these have done so,' said Legolas.

And what would Legolas have forgotten? He speaks the truth. All Orcs, of any sort, prefer the dark to the sun, they all hate it. And of course there are Mordor Orcs along with the Isengarders traveling in the Sunlight as well.

Treebeard says:
It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.

Of course we also know that Grishnakh's company abided and endured the Sun. And we know that Sauron's Orcs fight all day in the sunlight during the battle of the Pelennor Fields, and quite succesfully for a time. All Orcs prefer the dark.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,' said Gamling. 'And neither will the wild men of the hills. Do you not hear their voices?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More Orc/Men hybrids. More sun tolerance. Implication that this is a new invention, not one that has been around for 544 years. Note also, the three categories here neatly coincide with the three categories that Merry reports to see exiting Isengard:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here the match would be:
half-orcs=endless lines of marching Orcs,
orc-men=men with goblin-faces,
and wild men of the hills=battalions of men.
Note also that Tar-Elenion's reading of the passage has Gamling totally discount the Uruk-hai in his speech, in spite of the facts that:
1) Tar-Elenion's argument is that all Soldier Orcs, both those of Mordor and those of Isengard are sun resistant.
2) The Uruk-hai themselves claim to be sun-resistant, and apparently make up the majority of Saruman's forces.

That is interesting because while aragil says the Half-orcs=the Orcs (meaning the Uruk-hai), _Aragorn_ calls the 'men with goblin faces' "half-orcs" just a couple lines later. Interesting. It is also interesting that Gamling speaks of the 'sun resistant' nature of the 'hill men'.
1)Aragil has yet to show that the soldier-orcs of Mordor were not sun resistant in light of the facts that they run in the sun with out being greatly effected if at all, and they fight all day in the sunlight at the Pelennor Fields.
Note that Tar-Elenion has said Saruman's Uruk-hai may be able to better withstand the sun than Sauron's and he has also said that Sauron's Uruk-hai seem to be a different breed than Saruman's.

Also, we now have more terms to equate to Saruman's army list. The equation runs thus: Gamling's quote, Merry's account, Morgoth's Ring:
half-orcs=endless lines of marching Orcs=Men-Orcs
orc-men=men with goblin-faces=Orc-men
wild men of the hills=Dunlendings=(not mentioned)
Notice that if the half-orcs above are also Uruk-hai, then we've accounted for all of the sun-tolerant troops under Saruman's command.

Aragil says: half-orcs=marching Orcs=Men-Orcs, Aragorn says half-orcs=men with goblin-faces. Who to believe?

Take into account the above quotes which Tar-Elenion has kindly re-posted, and there are even statements which could be interpreted as showing Mordor Uruks to be not sun-tolerant (as Treebeard implies).

Like the ones where they run and fight all day in the sun with little or no ill effect?

In fact, Tar-Elenion's theory on the Lugburz Ape/Mountain Maggot/Saruman's Uruk-hai race sets up an interesting equation:
Uruk-hai: stronger, hardier than Lugburz Apes, not more sun tolerant
Uruk-hai: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, not stronger or hardier
Lugburz Apes: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, yet less strong and hardy.

Tar-Elenion did NOT advance this 'theory'. I suggest you read more carefully what I wrote, and refrain from putting words in my mouth.

In any case, we do know that the Higher Ups are capable of a much better description than "a small dwarf-man":
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from the Black Gate Opens
Pippin who stood behind Prince Imrahil sprang forward with a cry of grief.
‘Silence!’ said Gandalf sternly, thrusting him back; but the Messenger laughed aloud.
‘So you have yet another of these imps with you!’ he cried. ‘What use you find in them I cannot guess; but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly. Still, I thank him, for it is plain that this brat at least has seen these tokens before, and it would be vain for you to deny them now.’
...
‘Dwarf-coat, elf-cloak, blade of the downfallen West, and spy from the little rat-land of the Shire-nay; do not start! We know it well
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is certainly a more accurate assesment than "small Dwarf-man". What epiphane caused the change in tone?

Hmm... good question... I wonder if it could be because the Mouth of Sauron knows more than a simple soldier-orc and tracker?
Which describes a Hobbit better to some one who does not know what Hobbit is: "a sort of small dwarf-man" or an 'imp, brat, spy from a rat-land called the Shire'?

The only question is whether or not Tolkien intended for the soldier Orcs of Mordor to also be Uruk-hai, in which case his definition for the term Uruk-hai would have had to change from it's conception in 1942.

Please provide JRRT's definition for the term.


Aragil has yet to provide any evidence that Isengarders were involved in the events at Cirith Ungol.

 

[aragil]

reply (part 1)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I wonder if the last years of Denethor I all took place at night.

I wonder if every single Orc engagement from the First Age on occurred at night. The answer is probably not. Any Orc can fight during the day- they just don't fight well because they are not sun-tolerant. Were the Uruks of TA 2475 sun-tolerant? There is no statement either for or against. However, judging by the fact that Legolas, Gamling, and Treebeard all remark specifically on the Isengarders sun-tolerance, it seems like sun-tolerance is a sufficiently remarkable characteristic. This begs the question, why doesn't Tolkien mention sun-tolerance in the passage in the appendix rather than remarking on the size and strength of the Uruks? Which trait is more rare among pre-Uruk orcs: strength or sun tolerance? Many characters remark about Isengarders being sun tolerant. Exactly zero characters remark about Mordor Orcs' sun-tolerance. Why do I bear the burden of proof on this issue?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
And what would Legolas have forgotten? He speaks the truth. All Orcs, of any sort, prefer the dark to the sun, they all hate it. And of course there are Mordor Orcs along with the Isengarders traveling in the Sunlight as well.

At this point there are only Isengarders and Moria Orcs travelling together. Their discussion runs thus:

'But what are we going to do at sunrise?' said some of the Northerners.
'Go on running,' said Uglúk. 'What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?'
'But we can't run in the sunlight.'
'You'll run with me behind you,' said Uglúk. 'Run! Or you'll never see your beloved holes again.'

The implication is that the Moria runts would not run if Ugluk's lot was not making them. This is what I would like to call the "natural state of orcs". They can operate in daylight, they just do so poorly- i.e. not as well as Isengard troops.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Of course we also know that Grishnakh's company abided and endured the Sun. And we know that Sauron's Orcs fight all day in the sunlight during the battle of the Pelennor Fields, and quite succesfully for a time. All Orcs prefer the dark.

Yes Grishnakh's troop was able to run in the day. So were the Moria Maggots. Neither of them ran as well as Ugluk's troop.
Sauron's orcs at the Pelannor fight quite successfully? Is that a Mordor euphemism? I can find exactly two passages about Orcs at Pelannor- both mention routing, one mentions sunlight. All mention of Mordor forces actually fighting at Pelannor in the sunlight seem to be in reference to the Haradrim and Easterlings, who I agree, are probably sun-tolerant.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
That is interesting because while aragil says the Half-orcs=the Orcs (meaning the Uruk-hai), _Aragorn_ calls the 'men with goblin faces' "half-orcs" just a couple lines later. Interesting. It is also interesting that Gamling speaks of the 'sun resistant' nature of the 'hill men'.

Word order is important in English. Adjectives modify nouns, and in the case of compound words, preceed the noun they modify. You are a language guy, it is embarrasing for me to have to tell you this. The following are all men, with adjectival modifiers which show orcish characteristics: "Goblin-men", "Orc-men", "Men with Goblin faces", "squint-eyed Southerner at Bree", "squint-eyed Ruffians in the Shire". Orcs too can be modified with adjectives, however they will still be Orcs. The following are examples of such creatures found in the narrative: "Orcs", "Men-orcs", "Half-orcs". Any which I am forgetting? All of the above fall into the two broad categories from Morgoth's Ring: Orc-men and Men-orcs, respectively.
Absolutely, Gamling speaks of the sun-resistant nature of the hill-men. His point, I believe, is that NONE of the forces of Saruman are going to be bothered by the sun, whether they are half-orcs, goblin-men, or hill-men. Is Gamling forgetting about the Uruk-hai? Seems like they are a pretty important part of the equation. Perhaps that is what the reference to half-orcs is intended to convey?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
1)Aragil has yet to show that the soldier-orcs of Mordor were not sun resistant in light of the facts that they run in the sun with out being greatly effected if at all, and they fight all day in the sunlight at the Pelennor Fields.
Note that Tar-Elenion has said Saruman's Uruk-hai may be able to better withstand the sun than Sauron's and he has also said that Sauron's Uruk-hai seem to be a different breed than Saruman's.

Again, I have five quotes (three sir!) which tie sun-resistance in with being human/orc hybrids. Sauron's Uruks were not human/orc hybrids, the logical conclusion is that they were not sun tolerant. There are many quotes remarking that Saruman's troops are sun-tolerant. There are no such quotes regarding Sauron's troops. Any Orc will fight in the sun if the need is there- they are not vampires or trolls. They will even run in the sun if needs be- the Moria Maggots are proof of this. However, they will not be as effective- I'd say the Battle of the Pelannor fields is an excellent example of this. In the case of running, Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky", and they fall behind Ugluk's troop. Why are Ugluk's troop never mentioned as dropping their heads in the sun?
The natural state of Orcs is that they can't abide the sun. Several characters remark that Isengard troops can abide the sun, thereby allowing these troops to be exceptions outside the natural state. Exactly zero characters remark on a Mordor-orc's sun-tolerance, thus indicating that the Mordor troops exist within the natural state of Orcs- i.e. they are not sun-tolerant. If you want the Mordor Orcs to lie outside of the natural state of Orcs, then logic says that the burden of proof is on you, not me.
However, if you believe that Sauron's troops are in fact not as sun-resistant as the Isengarders, as you seem to be implying in your second point, then please stop disagreeing with me when I post statements to this effect. You can't say "aragil is wrong" and then agree with me in consecutive sentences. Not with regards to the same point. Not if you expect useful discussion to occur.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Aragil says: half-orcs=marching Orcs=Men-Orcs, Aragorn says half-orcs=men with goblin-faces. Who to believe?

Half-orcs are orcs with human characteristics. Men with goblin-faces are men with orcish characteristics. "Half" modifies orcs. "With goblin-faces" modifies men. Two different races, two different creatures. Believe your English teacher.

 

[aragil]

reply (part 2)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Like the ones where they run and fight all day in the sun with little or no ill effect?

Grishnakh's Apes run all day. So do the Moria Maggots. Ugluk's troop runs faster than both. Mordor orcs hang their head while running because of the effects of the sun. In case you have never run long distance let me fill you in on something: it is bad form to drop your head- it slows you down.
I have seen no evidence in the Pelannor fields narrative that Orcs were in fact fighting after the sun came up. The two mentions of Orcs I do see run thus:

For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.
...
Well nigh all the northern half of the Pelennor was overrun, and there camps were blazing, orcs were flying towards the River like herds before the hunters; and the Rohirrim went hither and thither at their will.
...
East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight.

In the context given, the first two quotes show that the Northern half of the Pelennor was occupied mostly by Orcs. It is they who are overtaken by terror when the darkness is removed. Not exactly fighting well, and the two mentions of sunlight make me think that the sun has something to do with the poor performance. Mordor troops are mentioned to be fighting, but they all seem to be men (or at least troll-men):

Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain.
...
New forces of the enemy were hastening up the road from the River; and from under the walls came the legions of Morgul; and from the southward fields came footmen of Harad with horsemen before them, and behind them rose the huge backs of the mûmakil with war-towers upon them.
...
And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields of the Pelennor; and the din of arms rose upon high, with the crying of men and the neighing of horses. Horns were blown and trumpets were braying, and the mûmakil were bellowing as they were goaded to war. Under the south walls of the City the footmen of Gondor now drove against the legions of Morgul that were still gathered there in strength.
...
The great wrath of his onset had utterly overthrown the front of his enemies, and great wedges of his Riders had passed clear through the ranks of the Southrons, discomfiting their horsemen and riding their footmen to ruin. But wherever the mûmakil came there the horses would not go, but blenched and swerved away; and the great monsters were unfought, and stood like towers of defence, and the Haradrim rallied about them. And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Rohirrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Gondor and prevent their joining with Rohan.
...
Hard fighting and long labour they had still; for the Southrons were bold men and grim, and fierce in despair; and the Easterlings were strong and war-hardened and asked for no quarter. And so in this place and that, by burned homestead or barn, upon hillock or mound, under wall or on field, still they gathered and rallied and fought until the day wore away.

These are all the mentions I can find of fighting during the battle. The Haradrim are mentioned often, the Easterlings, Variags of Khand, and the troll-men of Far Harad are all mentioned a couple of times apiece. The legions of Morgul are mentioned twice, but I can find no evidece that they contained Orcs. Frodo's eyewitness account runs thus:

And out of the gate an army came.
All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light
...
Even as these thoughts pierced him with dread and held him bound as with a spell, the Rider halted suddenly, right before the entrance of the bridge, and behind him all the host stood still.
...
Soon he had passed, like a shadow into shadow, down the winding road, and behind him still the black ranks crossed the bridge. So great an army had never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's might; no host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the fords of Anduin; and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth.

I see horsemen, but no mention of Orcs.
Conspicuously absent now from the account of Pelannor is any mention of Orcs except for the two earlier passages which mention them fleeing. How can anyone say that Sauron's Orcs faught at Pelannor with 'little or no ill effect" from sunlight?? In the interest of solving that puzzle, I'm attaching the account of the Pelannor fields. If anyone can find a description here of Orcs fighting well (as opposed to being routed), you get a lollipop!!

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Tar-Elenion did NOT advance this 'theory'. I suggest you read more carefully what I wrote, and refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Your theory appears to me to be that Ugluk's lot is stronger and hardier than the Mordor Orcs, yet no more sun-tolerant in spite of the fact that the Mordor Orcs are hanging their heads until the sun goes down. You seem to agree that Ugluk's band is more sun-tolerant than the mountain maggots, therefore they do not need to be stronger or hardier in order to overtake them. The above equation is pursuing this logic to it's natural conclusion. Exactly which part of this statement is putting words into your mouth?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Hmm... good question... I wonder if it could be because the Mouth of Sauron knows more than a simple soldier-orc and tracker?
Which describes a Hobbit better to some one who does not know what Hobbit is: "a sort of small dwarf-man" or an 'imp, brat, spy from a rat-land called the Shire'?

I'd say halfling best describes a Hobbit, as per Ugluk's orders:

'Orders.' said a third voice in a deep growl. 'Kill all but NOT the Halfings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as quickly as possible. That's my orders.'

When the Higher-ups want to, they can do better than "dwarf-man". For me the implication is that the Higher-ups are a little confused in this case.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Please provide JRRT's definition for the term. {Uruk-hai}

In 1942 JRRT used the term Uruk-hai to refer to Isengard Orcs. Between 1942 and 1948 he never referred to Mordor Orcs as either Uruk-hai or Uruks. However, during this span he did write about the Mordor soldier-Orcs which he later called Uruks, he simply had different names for them. The implication is that between 1942 and 1948 JRRT had no intention of using the word "Uruk" in any form to refer to soldier Orcs of Mordor. I have no idea what JRRT's precise definition of the term Uruk-hai was at the time, but judging by the context of the writings it had nothing to do with soldiers of Mordor.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Aragil has yet to provide any evidence that Isengarders were involved in the events at Cirith Ungol.

I have no intention of showing that Isengarders were involved at Cirith Ungol- if this is what you are waiting for then you will be waiting until the cows come home. My view is, and has always been that rebel Uruk-hai MIGHT (please notice I'm mentioning this as a possibility) be a mistaken identity, just as Sam is in fact not an great Elf, and Frodo is neither a dwarf nor a man (nor a mix of the two). Have Mordor troops ever been attacked by Isengarders in order to steal away spies from the Rat land of the Shire? Actually, yes they have- just 20 days earlier, an event that is doubtless still on every Mordorian's mind. And these particular Isengarders identified themselves as Uruk-hai at every opportunity. No, this would not be a good excuse if the Tracker and Soldier were operating under good intelligence. However, given that the only thing that the two Orcs agree about is that their information makes no sense (‘Garn! You don’t even know what you’re looking for.’ ‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up'), I believe it is a valid reading. I believe your take is also a valid reading, a courtesy you seem reluctant to reciprocate.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by Nóm

Originally posted by jallan
Whatever form Gorbag here used for the plural of Uruk we would expect to be rendered to Sam's understanding as the normal Common Speech form of the plural of Uruk, which would then be represented in the published text as English Uruks.

If you don't mind a little side question from an observer - why wouldn't this be "orcs"?

The prevailing logic as I see it is this: Uruk literally means 'orc', so 'Uruks' would literally be translated as 'orcs'. However, towards the end of the Third Age 'Uruk' is only used to refer to large Soldier-Orcs, regardless of the literal meaning of the word. Sam "understands" the word as spoken by Gorbag, including the context. Gorbag did not mean that any orc was left to put things straight, but only that the large Soldier-orcs had to do so. Sam understood it in this sense, so the natural translation would be 'Uruks'.
My contention as always is that since this is a self-reference by a Mordor Orc (one speaking Black Speech, no less), it is pretty damning evidence that 'Uruks' is a seperate term from 'Uruk-hai'. I do not think that the Ring translated everything Sam heard into Westron (obviously it didn't, as 'Gorbag' and 'Shagrat' are either Black Speech or pure Orcish names). I believe the Ring allowed Sam to understand what was being said in it's own language. When I listen to Spanish I don't translate a word such as 'tampoco' into English 'neither'. I understand it as 'tampoco'. This is how I believe the Ring works.
In any case, we know that the internal conceipt of the story is that Frodo wrote down the word 'Uruks' after he had access to Pippin and Merry's information on the Uruk-hai, as well as Sam's account of Gorbag and Shagrat. If Frodo recognized the two groups of Orcs as being the same, he should have had Gorbag say 'Uruk-hai', as it was here being used in the same sense in which Ugluk had earlier used it. I respect Frodo's abilities as a writer and a linguist, therefore if he used two distinct terms here, then I believe it was because he was referring to distinct creatures.
If we pull ourselves out of the internal conceipt of the story, then things become even easier. Tolkien wrote 'Uruks' for Gorbag's statement, he had earlier written 'Uruk-hai' for Ugluk. If he intended the two Orcs to belong to the same race then the easiest way for him to have shown that would have been to use the same term to describe them, especially since the Orcs are speaking in the same context. He didn't- I think that is significant.
Hope that answer's your question Nom, and in any case, 'observers' are welcome to stay if they find anything which suits their fancey.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: reply (part 1)

Originally posted by aragil
Any Orc can fight during the day- they just don't fight well because they are not sun-tolerant. Were the Uruks of TA 2475 sun-tolerant? There is no statement either for or against. However, judging by the fact that Legolas, Gamling, and Treebeard all remark specifically on the Isengarders sun-tolerance, it seems like sun-tolerance is a sufficiently remarkable characteristic. This begs the question, why doesn't Tolkien mention sun-tolerance in the passage in the appendix rather than remarking on the size and strength of the Uruks? Which trait is more rare among pre-Uruk orcs: strength or sun tolerance? Many characters remark about Isengarders being sun tolerant. Exactly zero characters remark about Mordor Orcs' sun-tolerance. Why do I bear the burden of proof on this issue?

The begged question might rather be how much experience did Legolas, Gamling and Treebeard have with the Uruks of Mordor. Presumably all had experience with the lesser breeds that were in greater numbers in their environs. You bear the burden of proof because I am challenging your assertions that the Uruks of Mordor were not 'tolerant' of the sun. I have already posted evidence that they could tolerate the sun (eg The Northerners a said to be 'flagging in the sun', not the Orcs of either Isengard or Mordor.)

Yes Grishnakh's troop was able to run in the day. So were the Moria Maggots. Neither of them ran as well as Ugluk's troop.

The question is why? We know the Northerners complained about the sun. We know they were a lesser breed. We know they were 'flagging in the sun'. There are two possibilities given for the Orcs of Mordor not running as well as the Isengarders. One is because the Isengarders were "quicker and hardier", the other is "because of some plan of Grishnakh's". Neither possibilty mentions the sun.

Sauron's orcs at the Pelannor fight quite successfully? Is that a Mordor euphemism? I can find exactly two passages about Orcs at Pelannor- both mention routing, one mentions sunlight. All mention of Mordor forces actually fighting at Pelannor in the sunlight seem to be in reference to the Haradrim and Easterlings, who I agree, are probably sun-tolerant.

The sun starts shining when the Rohirrim charge and start routing the Mordorians. The sun is shining when the Witch King comes to slay Theoden, and be slain (his arrival causes a great shadow). The sun is shining after he is slain, (Merry stands blinking in the sunlight). At mid-morning when the day begins to turn against Gondor the wind is blowing, the rain is flying the sun is shining and the air is clear. Mordor is winning, and all hope is lost because the watchmen see afar the Corsairs of Umbar coming. The hosts of Mordor are enheartened and come yelling to the onset. All this while the sun is shining. Only when the Mordorians realize that the Ships are filled with their enemy, do they become bewildered and filled with dread. It does not make any mention of the Orcs being cowed by the sun. The sun did not rout them, surprise and fear did.


After the initial rout by the Rohirrim, and the death of the Witch-king, it is stated that men from the City drove against the legions of Morgul that were gathered in strength at the south walls, these had not been routed until they were attacked (though the sun was shining). Then the Enemy's reserves are sent in. Now the tide is turning again. Then the Corsairs are seen. A great press of Eomers 'first foes' are between him and Harlond, while 'new foes' cut Eomer off from Imrahil. It is realized that the 'Corsairs' are actually allies. Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.

Word order is important in English. Adjectives modify nouns, and in the case of compound words, preceed the noun they modify. You are a language guy, it is embarrasing for me to have to tell you this.

You have me confused with someone else. Cian and Jallan are the 'language guys'

The following are all men, with adjectival modifiers which show orcish characteristics: "Goblin-men", "Orc-men", "Men with Goblin faces", "squint-eyed Southerner at Bree", "squint-eyed Ruffians in the Shire". Orcs too can be modified with adjectives, however they will still be Orcs. The following are examples of such creatures found in the narrative: "Orcs", "Men-orcs", "Half-orcs". Any which I am forgetting? All of the above fall into the two broad categories from Morgoth's Ring: Orc-men and Men-orcs, respectively.

Fascinating. However you are wrong. In the text Aragorn specifically refers to what you term 'men with orcish characteristics' as "half-orcs". Pippin also speaks of "half-orcs and ruffians" in the Shire (and Merry slays "a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc") where there were no Uruk-hai.

Absolutely, Gamling speaks of the sun-resistant nature of the hill-men. His point, I believe, is that NONE of the forces of Saruman are going to be bothered by the sun, whether they are half-orcs, goblin-men, or hill-men. Is Gamling forgetting about the Uruk-hai? Seems like they are a pretty important part of the equation. Perhaps that is what the reference to half-orcs is intended to convey?

None are?
"On they rode, the king and his companions. Captains and champions fell or fled before them. Neither orc nor man withstood them. Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders and their faces to the valley. They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day."
TT, Helm's Deep

Fear came upon Saruman's Uruks with the rising of the day.

Again, I have five quotes (three sir!) which tie sun-resistance in with being human/orc hybrids. Sauron's Uruks were not human/orc hybrids, the logical conclusion is that they were not sun tolerant. There are many quotes remarking that Saruman's troops are sun-tolerant. There are no such quotes regarding Sauron's troops. Any Orc will fight in the sun if the need is there- they are not vampires or trolls. They will even run in the sun if needs be- the Moria Maggots are proof of this. However, they will not be as effective- I'd say the Battle of the Pelannor fields is an excellent example of this. In the case of running, Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky", and they fall behind Ugluk's troop. Why are Ugluk's troop never mentioned as dropping their heads in the sun?

The Northerners complain about and 'flag' in the sun. The Mordor Orcs do not.
The text does not say that "Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky",". The sun is only said to effect the Northerners. The text does not say why the Mordor orcs had there heads bowed. We do know that Orcs tend to run bent over.

However, if you believe that Sauron's troops are in fact not as sun-resistant as the Isengarders, as you seem to be implying in your second point, then please stop disagreeing with me when I post statements to this effect. You can't say "aragil is wrong" and then agree with me in consecutive sentences. Not with regards to the same point. Not if you expect useful discussion to occur.

I believe it is likely that the Isengarders are _more_ tolerant of the sun than the Uruk-hai of Mordor. However I have seen no evidence that they are greatly so.
However what you keep claiming is that they are _not_ sun tolerant. The Northerners are obviously much more effected by the sun than either of the other groups. Those you could say are 'not sun tolerant'.
The same can not be said for those of Mordor. Indeed the "evidence" you give is a misconstrual of the text ("Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky""). The text does not say that at all. Was this deliberate? Useful discussion does not occur when such things as that happen.

Half-orcs are orcs with human characteristics. Men with goblin-faces are men with orcish characteristics. "Half" modifies orcs. "With goblin-faces" modifies men. Two different races, two different creatures. Believe your English teacher.

I think I will trust what JRRT wrote when he had Aragorn refer to the goblin-faced men as Half-orcs, which contradicts your statement..

 

[aragil]

Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The begged question might rather be how much experience did Legolas, Gamling and Treebeard have with the Uruks of Mordor. ... You bear the burden of proof because I am challenging your assertions that the Uruks of Mordor were not 'tolerant' of the sun. I have already posted evidence that they could tolerate the sun (eg The Northerners a said to be 'flagging in the sun', not the Orcs of either Isengard or Mordor.)

Gamling and Legolas make their statements to Aragorn. Aragorn says of himself "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs". If either Gamling or Legolas was wrong in their statements, you can assume Aragorn would correct them. He doesn't, so their statements are in effect testified to by the most knowledgeable mortal on the matters of Orc-kind. Still not enough evidence? Legolas had just encountered Uruks in Moria- he never mentioned them looking particularly strange- why should they? They've been around for 544 years. In that time they've had at least one engagement with the Elves of Mirkwood- The Battle of Five Armies. As for Gamling, I've mentioned before that the war which formed the Kingdom of Rohan (the fields of Celebrant) was fought against probable Uruks. Again the Rohirrim faced probable Uruks following the Orc-dwarf wars, when the tattered remnants of the Orcs tried to flee into the White Mountains. More Uruks were probably encountered in 2885, whent the twin sons of Folcwine perished fighting with Gondor in Ithilien. 16 years later Ithilien was finally overun by Uruks. The whole history of Rohan has been bound up with Uruks- I think it is safe to assume that Gamling is familiar with them.
Lack of a mention in one case is not proof by any means. I can come up with zillions of passages that don't state Uruks and Uruk-hai are the same thing. Would you be willing to accept that as evidence that they are different? Again, I have provided several quotes which describe the natural state of Orcs- they can not tolerate the sun. I have provided several passages which describe the hybrid creatures of Saruman as being sun-tolerant, THESE ARE THE ONLY ORCS DESCRIBED AS BEING SUN-TOLERANT. I've even provided passages which suggest that Mordor Orcs are effected by the sun- you choose to interpret them differently. None of this changes the facts- there are passages which say Orcs are effected by the sun. There are passages which say Isengard orcs are special for not being effected by the sun. There are no passages which state that Mordor Orcs are uneffected by the sun. I would think that this is enough evidence.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The question is why? We know the Northerners complained about the sun. We know they were a lesser breed. We know they were 'flagging in the sun'. There are two possibilities given for the Orcs of Mordor not running as well as the Isengarders. One is because the Isengarders were "quicker and hardier", the other is "because of some plan of Grishnakh's". Neither possibilty mentions the sun.

An explanation is provided later when the Mordor Orcs raise their heads. They have been running with their heads down- this slows them down. When the sun is no longer on their heads they are able to raise them, at which point they put on speed. Ugluk's lot is quicker than Grishnakh's because they need not worry about the sun- Grishnakh and company do. A 'plan' of Grishnakh's doesn't even come into play- the fact that he falls behind the Isengarders does nothing except get his own boys closer to the bows of the pursuing Rohirrim. Ugluk is not planning on bolting back across Rohan to Mordor. The Mordor Orcs have no conceivable reason for falling to the back, and, given Grishnakh's very strong preservation instinct, you can believe that if there was any way to stay further out of range of the Rohirrim bows, Grishnakh would do so.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The sun starts shining when the Rohirrim charge and start routing the Mordorians. ... (edited to fit within a single post) Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.

This is simply a cut and paste from one of your old posts. It does not address the fact that none of the forces described as fighting include orcs. Read my other post. I've even provided you with an electronic version of the text. Take my word for it or look yourself- there is no mention of Orcs fighting here, only men.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You have me confused with someone else. Cian and Jallan are the 'language guys'

My mistake- I meant it as a sincere compliment, especially when discussing Tolkien. Earlier comments you had made regarding manuscripts had made me think you had linguistic training. Obviously I don't have such training, so I guess I don't have any way of recognizing someone who does.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Fascinating. However you are wrong. In the text Aragorn specifically refers to what you term 'men with orcish characteristics' as "half-orcs". Pippin also speaks of "half-orcs and ruffians" in the Shire (and Merry slays "a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc") where there were no Uruk-hai.

First off, we don't know that the term "Uruk-hai" doesn't include Orc-men. Second of all, "half" modifies orc, not man. There is simply no way to be wrong about that.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
None are?
"On they rode, the king and his companions. Captains and champions fell or fled before them. Neither orc nor man withstood them. Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders and their faces to the valley. They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day."
TT, Helm's Deep
Fear came upon Saruman's Uruks with the rising of the day.

Yes, fear came upon Saruman's troops with the rising of the day. But it was not fear of day itself, or of the sun. The next passage clearly states:

The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed. Great trees, bare and silent, stood, rank on rank, with tangled bough and hoary head; their twisted roots were buried in the long green grass. Darkness was under them. Between the Dike and the eaves of that nameless wood only two open furlongs lay. There now cowered the proud hosts of Saruman, in terror of the king and in terror of the trees.

Clearly the host of Saruman is in terror of the king and the trees, as stated- nothing to do with morning or sun. This is not the same case as at Pelannor, which is where I assume you are going with this. There it is stated:

For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.

Immediately preceeding "terror took them" is the fact that the darkness is removed. No mention of trees. No mention of them being terrified by Theoden. Just the mention of darkness being removed.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The Northerners complain about and 'flag' in the sun. The Mordor Orcs do not.
The text does not say that "Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky",". The sun is only said to effect the Northerners. The text does not say why the Mordor orcs had there heads bowed. We do know that Orcs tend to run bent over.

The text says

Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.

The implication here is that the Orcs lift their heads because the sun has gone down. If there is another interpretation of why their heads are not raised until the sun goes down, I would like to hear it. Running bent over is not the same as running with your head down. Bent over is a result of the position of the shoulders. Head down is a result of the position of the neck.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I believe it is likely that the Isengarders are _more_ tolerant of the sun than the Uruk-hai of Mordor. However I have seen no evidence that they are greatly so.
However what you keep claiming is that they are _not_ sun tolerant. The Northerners are obviously much more effected by the sun than either of the other groups. Those you could say are 'not sun tolerant'.
The same can not be said for those of Mordor. Indeed the "evidence" you give is a misconstrual of the text ("Grishnakh's boys drop their heads due to the effects of the "pale winter sun shining in a cool blue sky""). The text does not say that at all. Was this deliberate? Useful discussion does not occur when such things as that happen.

This was not a misconstrual of the text. It was an interpretation, and as it stands it is the only interpretation which has been given. Answer the question: Why don't the Mordor Orcs lift their heads until after the sun goes down?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I think I will trust what JRRT wrote when he had Aragorn refer to the goblin-faced men as Half-orcs, which contradicts your statement..

Then you believe that "half-orc" describes a man instead of an Orc. There is no arguing with such a belief.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: reply (part 2)

Originally posted by aragil
some snippages for things that were adressed in above post.

I have seen no evidence in the Pelannor fields narrative that Orcs were in fact fighting after the sun came up. The two mentions of Orcs I do see run thus:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<snip first 2 quotes>
...
East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the context given, the first two quotes show that the Northern half of the Pelennor was occupied mostly by Orcs. It is they who are overtaken by terror when the darkness is removed. Not exactly fighting well, and the two mentions of sunlight make me think that the sun has something to do with the poor performance.

The context given is your own, which is taken out of context of what is in the book. I presented this evidence a long time ago.
A great press of Eomers 'first foes' are between him and Harlond, while 'new foes' cut Eomer off from Imrahil. It is realized that the 'Corsairs' are actually allies. Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.

Battle of the Pelennor Fields
'The Corsairs of Umbar!' men shouted. 'The Corsairs of Umbar! Look! The Corsairs of Umbar are coming! So Belfalas is taken, and the Ethir, and Lebennin is gone. The Corsairs are upon us! It is the last stroke of doom!'
And some without order, for none could he found to command them in the City, ran to the bells and tolled the alarm; and some blew the trumpets sounding the retreat. 'Back to the walls!' they cried. 'Back to the walls! Come back to the City before all are overwhelmed!' But the wind that sped the ships blew all their clamour away.
The Rohirrim indeed had no need of news or alarm. All too well they could see for themselves the black sails. For Éomer was now scarcely a mile from the Harlond, and a great press of his first foes was between him and the haven there, while new foes came swirling behind, cutting him off from the Prince. Now he looked to the River, and hope died in his heart, and the wind that he had blessed he now called accursed. But the hosts of Mordor were enheartened, and filled with a new lust and fury they came yelling to the onset.

The "new foes" were the 'Orcs, Variags, and troll-men'.
They were fighting well enough to cut off Imrahil from Eomer. Try looking at the full context.

Mordor troops are mentioned to be fighting, but they all seem to be men (or at least troll-men):
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<snip>
...
New forces of the enemy were hastening up the road from the River; and from under the walls came the legions of Morgul; and from the southward fields came footmen of Harad with horsemen before them, and behind them rose the huge backs of the mûmakil with war-towers upon them.
...
And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields of the Pelennor; and the din of arms rose upon high, with the crying of men and the neighing of horses. Horns were blown and trumpets were braying, and the mûmakil were bellowing as they were goaded to war. Under the south walls of the City the footmen of Gondor now drove against the legions of Morgul that were still gathered there in strength.
...
<snip>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are all the mentions I can find of fighting during the battle. The Haradrim are mentioned often, the Easterlings, Variags of Khand, and the troll-men of Far Harad are all mentioned a couple of times apiece. The legions of Morgul are mentioned twice, but I can find no evidece that they contained Orcs. Frodo's eyewitness account runs thus:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And out of the gate an army came.
All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light
...
<snip>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see horsemen, but no mention of Orcs.

I see no mention of the foot troops being Men. Perhaps they were all ghosts. We already know that Morgul had Orcs, that is where Gorbag was from.

Conspicuously absent now from the account of Pelannor is any mention of Orcs except for the two earlier passages which mention them fleeing. How can anyone say that Sauron's Orcs faught at Pelannor with 'little or no ill effect" from sunlight?? In the interest of solving that puzzle, I'm attaching the account of the Pelannor fields. If anyone can find a description here of Orcs fighting well (as opposed to being routed), you get a lollipop!!

The see above the hosts of Mordor. See above the 'new foes'.

Your theory appears to me to be that Ugluk's lot is stronger and hardier than the Mordor Orcs, yet no more sun-tolerant in spite of the fact that the Mordor Orcs are hanging their heads until the sun goes down. You seem to agree that Ugluk's band is more sun-tolerant than the mountain maggots, therefore they do not need to be stronger or hardier in order to overtake them. The above equation is pursuing this logic to it's natural conclusion. Exactly which part of this statement is putting words into your mouth?

You wrote:
"In fact, Tar-Elenion's theory on the Lugburz Ape/Mountain Maggot/Saruman's Uruk-hai race sets up an interesting equation:
Uruk-hai: stronger, hardier than Lugburz Apes, not more sun tolerant
Uruk-hai: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, not stronger or hardier
Lugburz Apes: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, yet less strong and hardy."

Again you are wrong. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
I stated no such thing. I did not say that the Orcs of Mordor were less strong and hardy than the Northerners. I did not say the Isengarders were not as strong or hardy as the Northerners. I also have stated that the Isengarders may well be more tolerant of the sunlight than the Uruk-hai of Mordor. Just not significantly so.
Again, DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I'd say halfling best describes a Hobbit, as per Ugluk's orders: When the Higher-ups want to, they can do better than "dwarf-man". For me the implication is that the Higher-ups are a little confused in this case.

Ugluk is from Isengard and Isengard has more dealings with the Shire than Mordor.
In any event a "sort of small dwarf-man" would be an apropriate description for a Halfling ("Go look for a Halfling, trooper", "Whats that boss?").

<snip>
The implication is that between 1942 and 1948 JRRT had no intention of using the word "Uruk" in any form to refer to soldier Orcs of Mordor. I have no idea what JRRT's precise definition of the term Uruk-hai was at the time, but judging by the context of the writings it had nothing to do with soldiers of Mordor.

Inaccurate. You are neglecting the Adunaic 'uruk, c.goblin, orc' from Lowdham's Report.

I have no intention of showing that Isengarders were involved at Cirith Ungol- if this is what you are waiting for then you will be waiting until the cows come home.

Of course you dont. That is because you cant. In fact you can not even provide evidence that they were believed to be involved.

My view is, and has always been that rebel Uruk-hai MIGHT (please notice I'm mentioning this as a possibility) be a mistaken identity, just as Sam is in fact not an great Elf, and Frodo is neither a dwarf nor a man (nor a mix of the two).

Sam was believed to be a great Elf, due to the power of the Ring and other evidence available.
Misconstruing what the text says about Frodo does not help your case. A 'sort of small dwarf-man' is an excellent description of a Hobbit. It neither suggests nor states he was a hybrid, nor that he was a dwarf or a 'man' (though you probably mean 'Man').

Have Mordor troops ever been attacked by Isengarders in order to steal away spies from the Rat land of the Shire? Actually, yes they have- just 20 days earlier, an event that is doubtless still on every Mordorian's mind.

"Then when they had laid their fallen comrades in a mound and had sung their praises, the Riders made a great fire and scattered the ashes of their enemies. So ended the raid, and no news of it came ever back either to Mordor or to Isengard; but the smoke of the burning rose high to heaven and was seen by many watchful eyes." TT, The Uruk-hai

I believe it is a valid reading. I believe your take is also a valid reading, a courtesy you seem reluctant to reciprocate.

Because there is no evidence whatsoever that Isengarders were believed to be involved in the actions at Cirith Ungol. There is no chance of that whatsoever. Shagrat survived and he knew what Orcs were there. The Nazgul and other soldiers came into Cirith Ungol and there were dead Morgul Orcs and Ungol Orcs who died fighting each other. Nothing to even remotely suggest Isengarders. There was a 'sort of dwarf-man', there was evidence of an 'Elf', there is nothing said, mentioned or even hinted at that suggest anyone believed that any of Sarumans orcs were involved.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Originally posted by aragil
Gamling and Legolas make their statements to Aragorn. Aragorn says of himself "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs". If either Gamling or Legolas was wrong in their statements, you can assume Aragorn would correct them. He doesn't, so their statements are in effect testified to by the most knowledgeable mortal on the matters of Orc-kind. Still not enough evidence? Legolas had just encountered Uruks in Moria- he never mentioned them looking particularly strange- why should they? They've been around for 544 years. In that time they've had at least one engagement with the Elves of Mirkwood- The Battle of Five Armies. As for Gamling, I've mentioned before that the war which formed the Kingdom of Rohan (the fields of Celebrant) was fought against probable Uruks. Again the Rohirrim faced probable Uruks following the Orc-dwarf wars, when the tattered remnants of the Orcs tried to flee into the White Mountains. More Uruks were probably encountered in 2885, whent the twin sons of Folcwine perished fighting with Gondor in Ithilien. 16 years later Ithilien was finally overun by Uruks. The whole history of Rohan has been bound up with Uruks- I think it is safe to assume that Gamling is familiar with them.

Which has nothing to do with Legolas comment that Orcs seldom journey out in the Sun. All hate the sun. The vast majority of Orcs involved in the Battle of Five Armies would not have been Uruks. The would have been of lesser breeds. The Orcs at Celebrant came from the Misty Mountains, the vast majority of them would have been lesser breeds. Ditto for after the Dwarf and Orc wars.
It is telling that Gamling speaks of Half-orcs and Goblin-men, while in the narrative voice the Uruk-hai are always referred to as Orcs or Goblins. I prefer not to make assumptions.

An explanation is provided later when the Mordor Orcs raise their heads. They have been running with their heads down- this slows them down. When the sun is no longer on their heads they are able to raise them, at which point they put on speed. Ugluk's lot is quicker than Grishnakh's because they need not worry about the sun- Grishnakh and company do. A 'plan' of Grishnakh's doesn't even come into play- the fact that he falls behind the Isengarders does nothing except get his own boys closer to the bows of the pursuing Rohirrim. Ugluk is not planning on bolting back across Rohan to Mordor. The Mordor Orcs have no conceivable reason for falling to the back, and, given Grishnakh's very strong preservation instinct, you can believe that if there was any way to stay further out of range of the Rohirrim bows, Grishnakh would do so.

The _text_ gives two possibilities for Grishnakh's people to fall back. Neither of them has anything to do with the sun. You are attempting to read something into the text that is not there. The text does not say they are _able_ to raise their heads when the sun goes down. It merely says that they do raise their heads. You can believe that if JRRT wanted to say that they slowed down because of the sun then he would have done so, like he did when he wrote that the Northerners 'were flagging in the bright sun'. He did not do that for the Mordor Orcs.

This is simply a cut and paste from one of your old posts. It does not address the fact that none of the forces described as fighting include orcs. Read my other post. I've even provided you with an electronic version of the text. Take my word for it or look yourself- there is no mention of Orcs fighting here, only men.

You are wrong. A great press of Eomers 'first foes' are between him and Harlond, while 'new foes' cut Eomer off from Imrahil. It is realized that the 'Corsairs' are actually allies. Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.
The new foes include Orcs which are later routed along with the Variags etc. Read the passages.

First off, we don't know that the term "Uruk-hai" doesn't include Orc-men. Second of all, "half" modifies orc, not man. There is simply no way to be wrong about that.

Aragorn, of whom you note: "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs", does not call the Uruk-hai "half-orcs", he calls the 'goblin-faced men' "half-orcs". Do you disagree with him?

Yes, fear came upon Saruman's troops with the rising of the day. But it was not fear of day itself, or of the sun. The next passage clearly states:

The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed. Great trees, bare and silent, stood, rank on rank, with tangled bough and hoary head; their twisted roots were buried in the long green grass. Darkness was under them. Between the Dike and the eaves of that nameless wood only two open furlongs lay. There now cowered the proud hosts of Saruman, in terror of the king and in terror of the trees

Clearly the host of Saruman is in terror of the king and the trees, as stated- nothing to do with morning or sun. This is not the same case as at Pelannor, which is where I assume you are going with this. There it is stated:

For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.

Immediately preceeding "terror took them" is the fact that the darkness is removed. No mention of trees. No mention of them being terrified by Theoden. Just the mention of darkness being removed.

Both circumstances are quite the same. It is not the sun that broke either group. It is the fact that they were being charged down upon. Indeed supply the first part of the passage:

Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new tire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed.

Rather frightening...
"...and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them"; if it was the sun that caused the terror did it also kill them? And Orcs are not singled out from the hosts of Mordor, which included more than Orcs. Were Men terrified of and killed by the sun as well?

The implication here is that the Orcs lift their heads because the sun has gone down. If there is another interpretation of why their heads are not raised until the sun goes down, I would like to hear it. Running bent over is not the same as running with your head down. Bent over is a result of the position of the shoulders. Head down is a result of the position of the neck.

You do not bend over from the shoulders, you bend over from the waist. (The texts notes they ran with "bowed backs"
They put on speed because of the charging cavalry, not because the sun goes down.

This was not a misconstrual of the text. It was an interpretation, and as it stands it is the only interpretation which has been given. Answer the question: Why don't the Mordor Orcs lift their heads until after the sun goes down?

No it is a misconstrual (and now seems quite deliberate). JRRT used 'bright sun' line for the Northerners. You took the line and transferred it to the Mordor Orcs. That is not an interpretation.
Because they dont straighten themselves up until then. The Isengarders run with their backs bowed. It is very difficult and uncomfortable to run bent over from the waist but with the neck craned so that your head is up.

Then you believe that "half-orc" describes a man instead of an Orc. There is no arguing with such a belief.

Half-orcs is used for 'goblin-faced men'.
That is what Aragorn of whom you note: "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs" says. Answer the question: Do you disagree with him?

 

[aragil]

Re: Re: reply (part 2)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The context given is your own, which is taken out of context of what is in the book. I presented this evidence a long time ago.
A great press of Eomers 'first foes' are between him and Harlond, while 'new foes' cut Eomer off from Imrahil. It is realized that the 'Corsairs' are actually allies. Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.

The context is a large quote from the books. Here is the fullest description of Eomer's "first foes" that I can come up with:

And with that the host began to move. But the Rohirrim sang no more. Death they cried with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide their battle swept about their fallen king and passed, roaring away southwards.
...
Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain.
...
The great wrath of his onset had utterly overthrown the front of his enemies, and great wedges of his Riders had passed clear through the ranks of the Southrons, discomfiting their horsemen and riding their footmen to ruin.

Eomer's "first foes" appear to all be Haradrim, echoed by the statement

And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse;

As for the new foes which cut Eomer off from Imrahil, they are described pretty clearly:

for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Rohirrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Gondor and prevent their joining with Rohan.

There is no mention of Orcs here, although there is an explicit statement that these were the forces which cut off Imrahil from Eomer.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The "new foes" were the 'Orcs, Variags, and troll-men'.
They were fighting well enough to cut off Imrahil from Eomer. Try looking at the full context.

The "new foes" were the "Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." Orcs were never described as being a part of this force, but thanks for the context tip.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I see no mention of the foot troops being Men. Perhaps they were all ghosts. We already know that Morgul had Orcs, that is where Gorbag was from.

We don't know that Morgul sent any of it's Orcs to Pelannor, or that it had any Orc troops beyond Gorbag's 80+. We do know that Morgul sent men, as in horsemen. The description of the troops behind the horsemen does not seem reminiscent to me of a description of Orcs. Orcs in the Morgul brigade is your unproven assumption.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The see above the hosts of Mordor. See above the 'new foes'.

Done and done. No mention of Orcs, plenty of mention of men. Next?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion

Originally posted by aragil
In fact, Tar-Elenion's theory on the Lugburz Ape/Mountain Maggot/Saruman's Uruk-hai race sets up an interesting equation:
Uruk-hai: stronger, hardier than Lugburz Apes, not more sun tolerant
Uruk-hai: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, not stronger or hardier
Lugburz Apes: more sun tolerant than Mountain Maggots, yet less strong and hardy.

Again you are wrong. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
I stated no such thing. I did not say that the Orcs of Mordor were less strong and hardy than the Northerners. I did not say the Isengarders were not as strong or hardy as the Northerners. I also have stated that the Isengarders may well be more tolerant of the sunlight than the Uruk-hai of Mordor. Just not significantly so.
Again, DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I'm trying to follow your logic. Questions:
1) If Tolkien only describes the Isengarders as being more sun tolerant than the Northerners, are they also quicker and hardier?
2) Is there any chance that the Isengarders are quicker and hardier than the Mordorians because the Isengarders are not suffering from the effects of the sun, while the Mordorians are?
If I knew your answer to these questions I wouldn't be forced to put words in your mouth.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Ugluk is from Isengard and Isengard has more dealings with the Shire than Mordor.
In any event a "sort of small dwarf-man" would be an apropriate description for a Halfling ("Go look for a Halfling, trooper", "Whats that boss?").

Isengard may have more dealings with the Shire than Mordor, but the Mouth suggests that Mordor is plenty familiar with the land and it's inhabitants

spy from the little rat-land of the Shire-nay; do not start! We know it well

Ugluk is a modest intellect- he had no problem figuring out what a Halfling was. The Mouth was a less modest intellect- he could instantly recognize someone from the Shire. The Nazgul were will-less intellects, they accomplished the task as well. There is no indication that any of the combined forces of evil were upset with the term "halfling". There is evidence that the Tracker and Soldier were upset with the term "a sort of small dwarf-Man". That is my point.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Inaccurate. You are neglecting the Adunaic 'uruk, c.goblin, orc' from Lowdham's Report.

Uruk-hai is a Black Speech term, not an Adunaic one. We do not know any connotation of the Adunaic term "uruk", specifically whether it was used only to refer to Soldier orcs in the same sense as BS uruk, or whether it referred to orcs in general, as per it's definition. Again, the Uruk/Uruks/Uruk-hai which appears in The Lord of the Rings is a Black Speech term. This is what I was defining. I was, as far as I am aware, quite accurate in describing how Tolkien wrote about these terms between 1942 and 1948.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Of course you dont. That is because you cant. In fact you can not even provide evidence that they were believed to be involved.

I don't because I am under no delusion about what actually happened at Cirith Ungol- Gorbag fought Shagrat. Please don't put words in my mouth. I think I have provided evidence of how the Cirith Ungol affair could have been attributed to Isengarders, via the earlier Grishnakh-Ugluk affair.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Sam was believed to be a great Elf, due to the power of the Ring and other evidence available.
Misconstruing what the text says about Frodo does not help your case. A 'sort of small dwarf-man' is an excellent description of a Hobbit. It neither suggests nor states he was a hybrid, nor that he was a dwarf or a 'man' (though you probably mean 'Man').

Sam was believed to be a great Elf. He was not a great Elf. I think the Cirith Ungol mess could have been believed to have been caused by Isengarders, even though it was in fact not. As for Frodo, a "short" man would have been simpler and more accurate. There is nothing dwarven about Hobbits other than their height. Attributing dwarvish characteristics to Frodo is a mistake, as is calling Sam an Elf.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
"Then when they had laid their fallen comrades in a mound and had sung their praises, the Riders made a great fire and scattered the ashes of their enemies. So ended the raid, and no news of it came ever back either to Mordor or to Isengard; but the smoke of the burning rose high to heaven and was seen by many watchful eyes." TT, The Uruk-hai

'Also they have filled themselves with new doubts that disturb their plans. No tidings of the battle will come to Mordor, thanks to the horsemen of Rohan; but the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants. He now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith. If Minas Tirith falls, it will go ill with Saruman.' TT, The White Rider

The Dark Lord probably also knew that the Isengarders referred to themselves as "Uruk-hai, ... the servants of Saruman", due to the fact that Ugluk proudly said this while addressing Grishnakh. The Dark Lord probably also knows that Ugluk slew some of the troops that tried taking the Hobbits to Mordor. Everything fits into place then.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
"Because there is no evidence whatsoever that Isengarders were believed to be involved in the actions at Cirith Ungol. There is no chance of that whatsoever. Shagrat survived and he knew what Orcs were there. The Nazgul and other soldiers came into Cirith Ungol and there were dead Morgul Orcs and Ungol Orcs who died fighting each other. Nothing to even remotely suggest Isengarders. There was a 'sort of dwarf-man', there was evidence of an 'Elf', there is nothing said, mentioned or even hinted at that suggest anyone believed that any of Sarumans orcs were involved.

Shagrat survived and knew that the non-existant survivors of Gorbag's brigade posed no threat to Mordor. The two spies did. I don't think a report from Shagrat would have been concerned at all with Gorbag's lot. I have remotely suggested Isengarders via the Grishnakh-Ugluk link, you just choose to ignore it.

 

[aragil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Which has nothing to do with Legolas comment that Orcs seldom journey out in the Sun. All hate the sun. The vast majority of Orcs involved in the Battle of Five Armies would not have been Uruks. The would have been of lesser breeds. The Orcs at Celebrant came from the Misty Mountains, the vast majority of them would have been lesser breeds. Ditto for after the Dwarf and Orc wars.
It is telling that Gamling speaks of Half-orcs and Goblin-men, while in the narrative voice the Uruk-hai are always referred to as Orcs or Goblins. I prefer not to make assumptions.

Even more telling is the fact that Gamling says that the Hybrids of Saruman can abide the sun, and then a few lines later the self-styled Uruk-hai say they also abide the sun.
If you would like to discount the statements of Treebeard, Gamling, and Legolas to prove your point, feel free. The quickest way to prove your point would be to discount Tolkien's characters altogether and write your own novel.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The _text_ gives two possibilities for Grishnakh's people to fall back. Neither of them has anything to do with the sun. You are attempting to read something into the text that is not there. The text does not say they are _able_ to raise their heads when the sun goes down. It merely says that they do raise their heads. You can believe that if JRRT wanted to say that they slowed down because of the sun then he would have done so, like he did when he wrote that the Northerners 'were flagging in the bright sun'. He did not do that for the Mordor Orcs.

Was the sun bright in the case of the Northerners, yet less so in the case of the Mordor Orcs? Did they have their own personal raincloud following them around? Running with your head down is slow. That is a fact. The Mordor Orcs do not run as fast as the Isengarders. That is a fact. The Mordor Orcs don't lift their heads until the sun goes down. That is a fact. When the Mordor Orcs lift their heads (after the sun goes down) they run faster. That is a fact. It takes very little "reading" on my part to connect the dots here.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You are wrong. A great press of Eomers 'first foes' are between him and Harlond, while 'new foes' cut Eomer off from Imrahil. It is realized that the 'Corsairs' are actually allies. Imrahil then charges into those that cut him off and they include Orcs along with Variags and the 'troll-men'.
The new foes include Orcs which are later routed along with the Variags etc. Read the passages.

I'm quite right, actually. I did more than read the passages, I posted them. Now we can both read them.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Both circumstances are quite the same. It is not the sun that broke either group. It is the fact that they were being charged down upon. Indeed supply the first part of the passage:
Rather frightening...
"...and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them"; if it was the sun that caused the terror did it also kill them? And Orcs are not singled out from the hosts of Mordor, which included more than Orcs. Were Men terrified of and killed by the sun as well?

The description at Pelannor is that darkness is removed and the Mordoreans flee in terror. Once they are fleeing in terror they are killed by the Rohirrim. Orcs in fact are singled out from the host of Mordor:

For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.
...
Well nigh all the northern half of the Pelennor was overrun, and there camps were blazing, orcs were flying towards the River like herds before the hunters; and the Rohirrim went hither and thither at their will.
...
Southward beyond the road lay the main force of the Haradrim, and there their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain.

These are three consecutive descriptions of the forces of Mordor arrayed against Rohan. There are no intervening passages which describe Mordor forces fighting the Rohirrim. First we get the Rohirrim attacking from the North. Then the forces of Mordor facing the Rohirrim are routed. Next we hear that the Northern half of the Pelannor is overrun, orcs are fleeing, and the Rohirrim can go wherever they want. Up to this point there is no mention of Mordor men anywhere. It appears that all that the Rohirrim have fought are Orcs. It is the Orcs alone who flee when the darkness is removed. Men don't come into the equation until the Haradrim are mentioned being south of the Road. They seem to be largely unfought, and there is no indication that they were ever fleeing. So no, Men were not terrified by the sun. That is a particularly Orcish characteristic, unless the Orcs are Isengarders.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You do not bend over from the shoulders, you bend over from the waist. (The texts notes they ran with "bowed backs"
They put on speed because of the charging cavalry, not because the sun goes down.

Next time you see someone running around bent at the waist, be sure to let me know. We could take a picture of it- it'd probably be worth some money. If Tolkien intended that the Mordorians put on speed because of the cavalry, then he sure picked a strange way of describing it:

Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.

Mentions of cavalry: 0. Mentions of sun: 1.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
No it is a misconstrual (and now seems quite deliberate). JRRT used 'bright sun' line for the Northerners. You took the line and transferred it to the Mordor Orcs. That is not an interpretation.
Because they dont straighten themselves up until then. The Isengarders run with their backs bowed. It is very difficult and uncomfortable to run bent over from the waist but with the neck craned so that your head is up.

The same bright sun was shining on the Isengarders, Northerners, and Mordorians, so I think what I have done is entirely legitimate. The Isengarders run with bowed backs, not with their heads down. The Mordoreans apparently run with both, until the sun sets. I never said that the Mordoreans were running around bent at the waist. That was your idea.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Half-orcs is used for 'goblin-faced men'.
That is what Aragorn of whom you note: "There are few among mortal Men who know more of Orcs" says. Answer the question: Do you disagree with him?

If Aragorn thinks that "men" and "orcs" are the same thing, then yes I do disagree with him. If he thinks "half-orcs" is a broad hybrid term, which includes the subclass of men with goblin faces then I agree with him. Gamling's quote which started this debate was "half-orcs and goblin-men". These two terms are clearly meant to refer to different creatures. "Goblin-men" is a perfect match for "men with goblin faces", thus leaving Gamling's "half-orcs" unaccounted for.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)

Originally posted by aragil
The "new foes" were the "Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." Orcs were never described as being a part of this force, but thanks for the context tip.

Orcs were part of the force that cut Imrahil off from Eomer, because when Imrahil counter attacked he drove the troll-men, Variags, and orcs before him. Did the Orcs just magically appear? (Of course what I am actually waiting for is the reasonable explanation for them, which I would probably agree with). Obviously they were fighting in the sun and well enough to cut off Imrahil from Eomer. If they were not there they could not be driven forth.

We don't know that Morgul sent any of it's Orcs to Pelannor, or that it had any Orc troops beyond Gorbag's 80+. We do know that Morgul sent men, as in horsemen. The description of the troops behind the horsemen does not seem reminiscent to me of a description of Orcs. Orcs in the Morgul brigade is your unproven assumption.

Your reasoning is specious at best.

In 'The Siege of Gondor' it is reported that:
"A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall."
Later Gandalf says:
"...for the Rammas is breached far and wide, and soon the host of Morgul will enter in at many points. And I came chiefly to say this. Soon there will be battle on the fields. A sortie must be made ready. Let it be of mounted men. In them lies our brief hope, for in one thing only is the enemy still poorly provided: he has few horsemen."
Then later:
"'The enemy,' men murmured. 'The dike is down. Here they come pouring through the breaches! And they carry torches, it seems. Where are our own folk?'"
And then:
"Now the main retreat was scarcely two furlongs distant. Out of the gloom behind a small company of horsemen galloped, all that was left of the rearguard. Once again they turned at bay, facing the oncoming lines of fire. Then suddenly there was a tumult of fierce cries. Horsemen of the enemy swept up. The lines of fire became flowing torrents, file upon file of Orcs bearing flames, and wild Southron men with red banners, shouting with harsh tongues, surging up, overtaking the retreat. And with a piercing cry out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, the Nazgûl stooping to the kill."
The host of Morgul is joined by the Haradrim, they breach the Rammas, then we are told what the host consists of Horsemen and file upon file of Orcs, kind of like the description of the host that issued from Morgul in 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol' (rank upon rank of black figures led by cavalry).
Then we have from 'The Black Gate Opens':
"But Gandalf and Aragorn rode with the vanguard to the entrance of Morgul Vale and looked on the evil city.
It was dark and lifeless; for the Orcs and lesser creatures of Mordor that had dwelt there had been destroyed in battle, and the Nazgûl were abroad. Yet the air of the valley was heavy with fear and enmity. Then they broke the evil bridge and set red flames in the noisome fields and departed."
Orcs in the host of Morgul, and more than Gorbag's patrol. Imagine that.

Done and done. No mention of Orcs, plenty of mention of men. Next?
[Aragil previously posted: The legions of Morgul are mentioned twice, but I can find no evidece that they contained Orcs.]

The legions of Morgul were made up of Orcs, see above. (Actually as far as I can recall, JRRT only uses the word "legion" in reference to Orcs). There are your Orcs.

I'm trying to follow your logic. Questions:
1) If Tolkien only describes the Isengarders as being more sun tolerant than the Northerners, are they also quicker and hardier?
2) Is there any chance that the Isengarders are quicker and hardier than the Mordorians because the Isengarders are not suffering from the effects of the sun, while the Mordorians are?
If I knew your answer to these questions I wouldn't be forced to put words in your mouth.

You are grasping at straws. This has nothing to do with the issue of 'sun tolerance'. There is nothing "forcing" you to put words in my mouth. The only thing I recall saying about 'quick hardy' is what JRRT said.

Isengard may have more dealings with the Shire than Mordor, but the Mouth suggests that Mordor is plenty familiar with the land and it's inhabitants

Mordor is plenty familiar? Try 'Hunt for the Ring', for example: "Now Sauron had never paid heed to the "Halflings," even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account, both because Gollum indeed had no certain knowledge himself, and because what be knew he falsified."

Ugluk is a modest intellect- he had no problem figuring out what a Halfling was. The Mouth was a less modest intellect- he could instantly recognize someone from the Shire. The Nazgul were will-less intellects, they accomplished the task as well.

The Mouth of Sauron is not a lowely tracker or simple fighting orc.
As for what the Nazgul knew, try 'Hunt for the Ring'

There is no indication that any of the combined forces of evil were upset with the term "halfling".

Try 'Hunt for the Ring', for example:: "Gollum would not know the term "Hobbit," which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would probably not use "Halfling" since he was one himself, and Hobbits disliked the name. That is why the Black Riders seem to have had two main pieces of information only to go on: Shire and Baggins."

There is evidence that the Tracker and Soldier were upset with the term "a sort of small dwarf-Man". That is my point.

No there is not. They were upset with the whole situation. Not a specific 'term'.

Uruk-hai is a Black Speech term, not an Adunaic one. We do not know any connotation of the Adunaic term "uruk", specifically whether it was used only to refer to Soldier orcs in the same sense as BS uruk, or whether it referred to orcs in general, as per it's definition. Again, the Uruk/Uruks/Uruk-hai which appears in The Lord of the Rings is a Black Speech term. This is what I was defining. I was, as far as I am aware, quite accurate in describing how Tolkien wrote about these terms between 1942 and 1948.

You wrote: "The implication is that between 1942 and 1948 JRRT had no intention of using the word "Uruk" in any form to refer to soldier Orcs of Mordor."
The Lowdham Report is from that period and can not refer to Isengarders (who did not exist in the Second Age).

I don't because I am under no delusion about what actually happened at Cirith Ungol- Gorbag fought Shagrat. Please don't put words in my mouth. I think I have provided evidence of how the Cirith Ungol affair could have been attributed to Isengarders, via the earlier Grishnakh-Ugluk affair.

Which words did I put in your mouth?
Again there is no evidence to support your supposition. Your supposition is pure speculation.

Sam was believed to be a great Elf. He was not a great Elf. I think the Cirith Ungol mess could have been believed to have been caused by Isengarders, even though it was in fact not. As for Frodo, a "short" man would have been simpler and more accurate. There is nothing dwarven about Hobbits other than their height. Attributing dwarvish characteristics to Frodo is a mistake, as is calling Sam an Elf.

What "dwarvish characteristics" were attributed to Frodo?

Sam was believed to be a 'great Elf' because JRRT tells us that is how he was seen. It was not a mistake to report it. JRRT does not tell us that the Morgul Orcs or Ungol Orcs were seen as Isengarders. In fact Sam notes that it would be dangerous to wear the Morgul gear after the events in the Tower.
It is not a mistake to call Frodo a "small sort of dwarf-man", and it does not imply that he was a Dwarf or a Man. That is an accurate description for someone who does not know what a hobbit or a halfling is (and would not even know those terms). It is not a mistake to report it.
The Uruk-hai involved were from Morgul and Ungol. That is what was seen and reported. No mistake.

The Dark Lord probably also knew that the Isengarders referred to themselves as "Uruk-hai, ... the servants of Saruman", due to the fact that Ugluk proudly said this while addressing Grishnakh. The Dark Lord probably also knows that Ugluk slew some of the troops that tried taking the Hobbits to Mordor. Everything fits into place then.

No, your 'probablies' are pure speculation and not based on the text. The text says what Sauron knew about this.
However, even if Sauron did know why would he go spreading it all over Mordor? And why would Sauron not know that Saruman's Uruk-hai had all been slaughtered?

Shagrat survived and knew that the non-existant survivors of Gorbag's brigade posed no threat to Mordor. The two spies did. I don't think a report from Shagrat would have been concerned at all with Gorbag's lot. I have remotely suggested Isengarders via the Grishnakh-Ugluk link, you just choose to ignore it.

1). The text does not say that Shagrat knew none of Gorbag's boys got out.
2). The text does not say or imply that none of Gorbag's boys got out. It does say that none of Shagrat's got out.
3). The Nazgul who comes there does not know that none escaped with the prisoner (nor do the troops that arrive shortly after).
4). I ignore your remote suggestion because you have _no_ evidence to back it up. You are engaging in pure speculation.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Originally posted by aragil
Even more telling is the fact that Gamling says that the Hybrids of Saruman can abide the sun, and then a few lines later the self-styled Uruk-hai say they also abide the sun.
If you would like to discount the statements of Treebeard, Gamling, and Legolas to prove your point, feel free. The quickest way to prove your point would be to discount Tolkien's characters altogether and write your own novel.

Treebeard is not making a statement he is asking a speculative question. Gamling speaks half-orcs and goblin-men bred by Saruman, he does not attribute either appellation to the Uruk-hai (you are the one doing that) who are directly called Orcs throughout. Legolas says it is unusual for Orcs to be out in the Sun and it is. How am I discounting anything they say?
JRRT never says Saruman's Uruk-hai are half-orcs. No character ever says that Saruman's Uruk-hai are half-orcs. Aragorn does call the 'goblin-faced men' half-orcs (you seem to give more credence to Gamling than Aragorn). Pippin mentions 'half-orcs and ruffians' in the Shire. These are not Saruman's Uruk-hai (who are dead). Saruman's Uruk-hai are called Orcs, Goblins, Uruk-hai and Uruks directly.

Running with your head down is slow. That is a fact. The Mordor Orcs do not run as fast as the Isengarders. That is a fact. The Mordor Orcs don't lift their heads until the sun goes down. That is a fact. When the Mordor Orcs lift their heads (after the sun goes down) they run faster. That is a fact. It takes very little "reading" on my part to connect the dots here.

Running with you back bowed is slow. Of course Orcs did so.
Running with your back bowed and your head up is uncomfortable at the least.
Why did the Isengarders run with their backs bowed?
Two reasons are given for the Morder Orcs not running as fast as the Isengarders: a 'plan' , or 'not being as quick and hardy'. Nothing is said about the sun.
Fact: JRRT said the Northerners were 'flagging in the sun', he did not say that of the Mordor Orcs.
Perhaps the Mordor Orcs had their heads down because the sun was in their eyes.

<snip of point addressed in above post>

The description at Pelannor is that darkness is removed and the Mordoreans flee in terror. Once they are fleeing in terror they are killed by the Rohirrim.

The "hosts of Mordor" are fleeing in terror from the Rohirrim. Not from the Sun. The "hosts of Mordor" include more than just orcs. They wail, flee and die because of the Rohirrim. Not because of the sun. You are picking and choosing.

Orcs in fact are singled out from the host of Mordor: These are three consecutive descriptions of the forces of Mordor arrayed against Rohan. There are no intervening passages which describe Mordor forces fighting the Rohirrim. First we get the Rohirrim attacking from the North. Then the forces of Mordor facing the Rohirrim are routed. Next we hear that the Northern half of the Pelannor is overrun, orcs are fleeing, and the Rohirrim can go wherever they want.

The Orcs are singled out later.
The Orcs are said to be fleeing from the Rohirrim "like herds before the hunters". They are not said to be fleeing from the sun.

Up to this point there is no mention of Mordor men anywhere. It appears that all that the Rohirrim have fought are Orcs. It is the Orcs alone who flee when the darkness is removed. Men don't come into the equation until the Haradrim are mentioned being south of the Road. They seem to be largely unfought, and there is no indication that they were ever fleeing. So no, Men were not terrified by the sun. That is a particularly Orcish characteristic, unless the Orcs are Isengarders.

The text does not say that the Orcs alone fled. It says the hosts of Mordor fled. The hosts of Mordor include more than Orcs. It _later_ (the next chapter and later in the battle) specifically singles out the orcs who flee from the Rohirrim, not the sun. But even if the text specifically said 'the orcs of the hosts of Mordor fled in terror', it would still be the Rohirrim they were fleeing from, not the sun. You are picking and choosing.

If Tolkien intended that the Mordorians put on speed because of the cavalry, then he sure picked a strange way of describing it:

Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.

Mentions of cavalry: 0. Mentions of sun: 1.

This is out of context. Try the prior paragragh:
"Horsemen, riding very swiftly, had indeed been sighted: still far behind, but gaining on the Orcs, gaining on them like a tide over the flats on folk straying in a quicksand."
This is why they put on speed.

<snip of point adressed above>

 

[aragil]

Re (1): Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Orcs were part of the force that cut Imrahil off from Eomer, because when Imrahil counter attacked he drove the troll-men, Variags, and orcs before him. Did the Orcs just magically appear? (Of course what I am actually waiting for is the reasonable counter argument, which I would probably agree with). Obviously they were their fighting in the sun and well enough to cut off Imrahil from Eomer. If they were not there they could not be driven forth.

Honestly, if I knew what you were looking for, and that you would agree with it, I'd post it. The text describes the forces seperating Imrahil from Eomer very explicitly. There is no mention of orcs. There is not even a mention of 'legion' or anything else vague that could be interpreted as orcs. There are Easterling, Southrons, Variags, and Far-haradrim. No possibility of Orcs. These are the forces that are sent to separate Eomer and Imrahil, a force which fights reasonably well. Later, elements of this force are mentioned as being driven Eastward by Imrahil. My interpretation is that they are driven along with orcs that had been routing from the outset. Since there is no mention of Orcs being sent to separate Eomer and Imrahil, I believe this is a good interpretation.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Your reasoning is specious at best.

Your posting style is impolite, at best. If you think your continuous insults somehow enhance your contribution to these boards, then you are sadly mistaken. Facts like Orcs being described in the Morgul host are welcome contributions. Insults about my reasoning skills are not.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
In 'The Siege of Gondor' it is reported that:
"A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall."
Later Gandalf says:
"...for the Rammas is breached far and wide, and soon the host of Morgul will enter in at many points. And I came chiefly to say this. Soon there will be battle on the fields. A sortie must be made ready. Let it be of mounted men. In them lies our brief hope, for in one thing only is the enemy still poorly provided: he has few horsemen."
Then later:
"'The enemy,' men murmured. 'The dike is down. Here they come pouring through the breaches! And they carry torches, it seems. Where are our own folk?'"
And then:
"Now the main retreat was scarcely two furlongs distant. Out of the gloom behind a small company of horsemen galloped, all that was left of the rearguard. Once again they turned at bay, facing the oncoming lines of fire. Then suddenly there was a tumult of fierce cries. Horsemen of the enemy swept up. The lines of fire became flowing torrents, file upon file of Orcs bearing flames, and wild Southron men with red banners, shouting with harsh tongues, surging up, overtaking the retreat. And with a piercing cry out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, the Nazgûl stooping to the kill."
The host of Morgul is joined by the Haradrim, they breach the Rammas, then we are told what the host consists of Horsemen and file upon file of Orcs, kind of like the description of the host that issued from Morgul in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol (rank upon rank of black figures led by cavalry).
The we have from The Black Gate Opens:
"But Gandalf and Aragorn rode with the vanguard to the entrance of Morgul Vale and looked on the evil city.
It was dark and lifeless; for the Orcs and lesser creatures of Mordor that had dwelt there had been destroyed in battle, and the Nazgûl were abroad. Yet the air of the valley was heavy with fear and enmity. Then they broke the evil bridge and set red flames in the noisome fields and departed."
Wow, Orcs in the host of Morgul.

Had you posted this earlier it would have saved some empty posting on both are parts. We are agreed now, the Legion of Morgul has Orcs in it, and was very aggressive prior to the charge of the Rohirrim. Now let's look at how they fare post-dawn:

New forces of the enemy were hastening up the road from the River; and from under the walls came the legions of Morgul; and from the southward fields came footmen of Harad with horsemen before them, and behind them rose the huge backs of the mûmakil with war-towers upon them.
...
And now the fighting waxed furious on the fields of the Pelennor; and the din of arms rose upon high, with the crying of men and the neighing of horses. Horns were blown and trumpets were braying, and the mûmakil were bellowing as they were goaded to war. Under the south walls of the City the footmen of Gondor now drove against the legions of Morgul that were still gathered there in strength.

The legions of Morgul come from under the wall. This does not speak of any particular prowess on their part. Later they are driven into by the footmen of Gondor- not necessarily routing, but not showing any prowess either. The matter stands- Men fighting for Mordor are described in several passages as regrouping and fighting reasonably well. The Orcs are not. The implication is that the sunlight has broken their fighting ability, else why the deference between men and orcs? No such difference exists between the men and orcs fighting for Isengard. This, along with the slow performance of Grishnakh's band and the numerous comments by characters that imply only hybrid orcs are sun tolerant, makes me think that Sauron's Orcs (who are non-hybrids) are not any more sun tolerant than any other Orcs who has been around since the first age. I am saying that Sauron's orcs are like other orcs in this respect. You are saying that they are different. It is up to you to come up with evidence that they are different. So far I have not seen anything compelling. The battle at Pelannor fields does not have the orcs behaving any different then they did at say, the Disaster of Gladden fields. All the descriptions of the Orcs at Pelannor during the day either have them routing, or being driven into. None of these descriptions are like the descriptions of the (sun-tolerant) Haradrim and Easterlings, who rally and fight. Where is the evidence that these Orcs were more sun tolerant than their First and Second Age counterparts?

 

[aragil]

Re (2): Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You are grasping at straws. This has nothing to do with the issue of 'sun tolerance'. There is nothing "forcing" you to put words in my mouth.

Thank you for again not answering my question. This has everything to do with sun-tolerance. I think that the reason the Isengarders appear to be 'stronger and hardier' than the Mordor orcs is because the Mordor Orcs are being adversely effected by the sun. The description of the Mordor Orcs lifting their heads and putting on speed after the sun goes down supports me in this. Your logic seems to be that the greater strength and hardiness of the Isengarders has nothing to do with sun-tolerance. I have several times extended this logic. This is not putting words in your mouth, this is taking the words from your mouth and seeing where it leads. If you would answer my question then I wouldn't even have to see where your logic leads- you would be telling me.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Mordor is plenty familiar? Try 'Hunt for the Ring', for example: "Now Sauron had never paid heed to the "Halflings," even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay. From Gollum, even under pain, he could not get any clear account, both because Gollum indeed had no certain knowledge himself, and because what be knew he falsified."
The Mouth of Sauron is not a lowely tracker or simple fighting orc.
As for what the Nazgul knew, try 'Hunt for the Ring'
Try 'Hunt for the Ring', for example:: "Gollum would not know the term "Hobbit," which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would probably not use "Halfling" since he was one himself, and Hobbits disliked the name. That is why the Black Riders seem to have had two main pieces of information only to go on: Shire and Baggins."

There is a big difference between Hunt for the Ring and the later events in Mordor. That difference is experience. Before the Hunt for the Ring Mordor knew nothing of the Shire. Afterwards, as the Mouth says, Mordor knows it well. The words of the soldier are post Hunt for the Ring. At this point Mordor knew the Shire well. Grishnakh had no problem recognizing halflings, the logical conclusion would be that the tracker and the Soldier wouldn't either.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
No there is not. They were upset with the whole situation. Not a specific 'term'.

They were upset with an unclear order from the Higher Ups. They don't seem to think any of the described culprits were particularly likely. Neither do I.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
You wrote: "The implication is that between 1942 and 1948 JRRT had no intention of using the word "Uruk" in any form to refer to soldier Orcs of Mordor."
The Lowdham Report is from that period and can not refer to Isengarders (who did not exist in the Second Age).

I was speaking in the context of the Black Speech term Uruk. Adunaic is a different language. Doubtless the two words spring from a common root in Quenya or Common Elvish, but they are not the same term. Whatever Tolkien had in mind for Adunaic has no effect on what he had in mind for the Black Speech, which is what we're discussing.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Which words did I put in your mouth?

Earlier post by Tar-Elenion
Of course you dont. That is because you cant.

Again there is no evidence to support your supposition. Your supposition is pure speculation.

There is evidence that earlier Isengard Uruk-hai had attacked servants of Sauron in order to steal away halflings. This is from the text. This is evidence.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Sam was believed to be a 'great Elf' because JRRT tells us that is what was seen. It was not a mistake to report it.
What "dwarvish characteristics" were attributed to Frodo? You should stop misconstruing the text.
It is not a mistake to call Frodo a "small sort of dwarf-man". That is an accurate description for someone who does not know what a hobbit or a halfling is (and would not even know those terms). It is not a mistake to report it.
The Uruk-hai involved were from Morgul and Ungol. That is what was seen and reported. No mistake.

It was a mistake to call Sam an great Elf. It doesn't matter whether he was believed to be an great Elf or not. That belief was in error. Frodo is given dwarvish characteristics in the term "a sort of dwarf-Man". The term "dwarf" is an adjective modifying "Man". This gives the "Man" dwarvish characteristics. Clear enough?
Some common Dwarven characteristics: Short, beard, stocky. Only short applies to Frodo, hence it would be easier to call him a "short-man", or a "half-sized man=halfling". Dwarf-man is inaccurate. That the Orcs of Ungol and Morgul were Uruk-hai is your assumption. It does not have much bearing on my argument.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
No, your 'probablies' are pure speculation and not based on the text. The text says what Sauron knew.
However, even if Sauron did know why would he go spreading it all over Mordor?

Ugluk told Grishnakh that he was a member of the fighting Uruk-hai, and that they were servants of Saruman. Ugluk killed troops loyal to Mordor in order to take the halflings to Isengard. None of this is speculation- it is fact based on the text. I speculated that this was pertinent information which Grishnakh would have communicated on. Gandalf agrees with me:

the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants

Obviously the Dark Lord knows that his own troops were opposed by Isengarders, else how would he know that they were going to Isengard. Ugluk says that the Isengarders are the fighting Uruk-hai, servants of Saruman. In all probability this is how Grishnakh would have described them. Feel free to post a reasonable alternative. I'd imagine that "against the will of his own servants" was a reference to his servants being killed by the Isengarders. This seems like a reasonable conclusion based on the text. Perhaps you could offer a different reasonable conclusion?
As far as what Sauron would want his underlings to know, it seems they all know too much. Grishnakh has personal knowledge of the Ring. Gorbag knows something 'has slipped'. The tracker tells the soldier to

‘Go to your filthy Shriekers, and may they freeze the flesh off you! If the enemy doesn’t get them first. They’ve done in Number One, I’ve heard, and I hope it’s true!’

I seriously doubt any of this is information that Sauron would want to be generally known to his troops. The fact is that they learn about this stuff, whether Sauron wills it or no.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
1). The text does not say that Shagrat knew none of Gorbag's boys got out.
2). The text does not say or imply that none of Gorbag's boys got out. It does say that none of Shagrat's got out.
3). The Nazgul who comes there does not know that none escaped with the prisoner.
4). I ignore your remote suggestion because you have _no_ evidence to back it up. You are engaging in pure speculation.

1) Shagrat seems plenty confident to go out of the tower, even though he is injured. He does not say that he thinks all of Gorbag's men are dead, nor does he say that he suspects some are still living. His actions, however, support the former.
2) HoME IX, p. 18

His first draft ('A') of the new chapter extended as far as the point where Sam, descending the path from the Cleft, sees the two orcs shot down as they ran from the gateway of the Tower

HoME IX, p. 23-24

Two archers right in the gateway - probably those who shot down the escaping orcs - lay pierced from behind with spears.

HoME IX, p. 24

He overhears the orc reporting to Shagrat. Shagrat is lying wounded by dead body of Gorbag. All Gorbag's men have been killed, but they have killed all Shagrat's but these two.

HoME IX, p. 24

Gorbag coveted the mithril coat, but pretended that they must search for the missing spy first. He sent his men to capture wall and gate, and demanded mithril coat.

Nothing in the published work contradicts this. Shagrat's men are still shot down by archers, but here we see that those archers were sent to guard the gates from any messenger being sent out. They were not covering a retreat by the remainder of Gorbag's lot. We even get an explicit statement "All Gorbag's men have been killed".
3) The Nazgul who came there does not appear to be the source of the rumor, as he never encountered a great Elf or a sort of dwarf-Man.
4) I provide evidence from the text which backs up my speculation. You choose to ignore it.

 

[aragil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: reply (part 1)

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Treebeard is not making a statement he is asking a speculative question. Gamling speaks half-orcs and goblin-men bred by Saruman, he does not attribute either appellation to the Uruk-hai (you are the one doing that) who are directly called Orcs throughout. Legolas says it is unusual for Orcs to be out in the Sun and it is. How am I discounting anything they say?
JRRT never says Saruman's Uruk-hai are half-orcs. No character ever says that Saruman's Uruk-hai are half-orcs. Aragorn does call the 'goblin-faced men' half-orcs (you seem to give more credence to Gamling than Aragorn). Pippin mentions 'half-orcs and ruffians' in the Shire. These are not Saruman's Uruk-hai (who are dead). Saruman's Uruk-hai are called Orcs, Goblins, Uruk-hai and Uruks directly.

Treebeard makes a declarative statement:

He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that: he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.

If you have any evidence to refute this, please provide it. Otherwise accept that it is Saruman's Orcs and not Sauron's which can endure the sun. Treebeard later speculates that Saruman has been crossing Orcs with Men. This is confirmed by Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring. If you have any evidence to refute Treebeard's supposition, please provide it.
Aragorn says that with dawn will come hope. Gamling says that Half-orcs, goblin-men, and wild-men will not be affected by the dawn. He seems to be describing all of Saruman's forces. You seem to think he is not describing the Uruk-hai, which means he is neglecting the majority of Saruman's forces. The Uruk-hai later claim that they care not for the dawn, indicating that they are the half-orcs which Gamling describes. This is entirely self consistent.
There is no evidence that the goblin-men consider themselves to be anything other than Uruk-hai. In which case Pippin's comments in the Shire could in fact be regarding Uruk-hai. Even Robert Foster, in his guide to Middle-earth recognizes that. If you can provide text refuting that, then please do so.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Running with you back bowed is slow. Of course Orcs did so.

Really? I thought the way Orcs ran was quite fast.

From The Hobbit
"A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones," thought Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains, go along at a great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground.

Running with your back bowed and your head up is uncomfortable at the least.
Why did the Isengarders run with their backs bowed?
Two reasons are given for the Morder Orcs not running as fast as the Isengarders: a 'plan' , or 'not being as quick and hardy'. Nothing is said about the sun.
Fact: JRRT said the Northerners were 'flagging in the sun', he did not say that of the Mordor Orcs.
Perhaps the Mordor Orcs had their heads down because the sun was in their eyes.

Isengarders are never mentioned with their heads down. Why would the sun not be in their eyes? Why would the Isengarders run with their heads up if it was so darned uncomfortable? Why would JRRT mention the sun going down if it has no effect on the Mordor lot?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The "hosts of Mordor" are fleeing in terror from the Rohirrim. Not from the Sun. The "hosts of Mordor" include more than just orcs. They wail, flee and die because of the Rohirrim. Not because of the sun. You are picking and choosing.

The "hosts of Mordor" referred to here is never described as anything but Orcs. There is absolutely no reference to men. I am "picking" every single mention of Mordor troops there are here, and "choosing" to post them all. If I have missed one, please provide it. Otherwise accept the fact that I posted it all and there was no mention of men.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The Orcs are singled out later.
The Orcs are said to be fleeing from the Rohirrim "like herds before the hunters". They are not said to be fleeing from the sun.

The description of the Orcs is the only one given for the "hosts of Mordor". They are not "singled out". They are it. As far as I know, the only time Orcs are ever described as fleeing in terror of the sun is the first time it appears when Fingolfin marches into Beleriand. Otherwise Orcs will not flee in terror of it. They will, however, be adversely affected by it, and the will route where otherwise they might stand and fight- like the Haradrim and Easterlings who are at Pelannor. This description is entirely consistent with Sauron's Orcs being affected by the sun as they were in the first and second age. This is not what happens to Saruman's Orcs.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
The text does not say that the Orcs alone fled. It says the hosts of Mordor fled. The hosts of Mordor include more than Orcs. It _later_ (the next chapter and later in the battle) specifically singles out the orcs who flee from the Rohirrim, not the sun. But even if the text specifically said 'the orcs of the hosts of Mordor fled in terror', it would still be the Rohirrim they were fleeing from, not the sun. You are picking and choosing.

I "picked" every passage available. If you think that there is a passage which describes men among these "hosts of Mordor" then please provide it. Otherwise stop implying that I am stacking the dice- it's insulting.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
This is out of context. Try the prior paragragh:
"Horsemen, riding very swiftly, had indeed been sighted: still far behind, but gaining on the Orcs, gaining on them like a tide over the flats on folk straying in a quicksand."
This is why they put on speed.

If this is why they put on speed, why mention the sunset at all? Why not have the horsemen sighted and then the orcs immediately put on speed? What possible reason could there be for inserting the sun reference?

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Re: Re (1): Re: Re: Re: reply (part 2)

Originally posted by aragil
Honestly, if I knew what you were looking for, and that you would agree with it, I'd post it. The text describes the forces seperating Imrahil from Eomer very explicitly. There is no mention of orcs. There is not even a mention of 'legion' or anything else vague that could be interpreted as orcs. There are Easterling, Southrons, Variags, and Far-haradrim. No possibility of Orcs. These are the forces that are sent to separate Eomer and Imrahil, a force which fights reasonably well. Later, elements of this force are mentioned as being driven Eastward by Imrahil. My interpretation is that they are driven along with orcs that had been routing from the outset. Since there is no mention of Orcs being sent to separate Eomer and Imrahil, I believe this is a good interpretation.

The reasonable explanation is that the Orcs who had been earlier driven away by the Rohirrim, toward the river, regrouped when the reserves were sent in from over the river and thus were part of the forces that cut off Imrahil from Eomer. That is why the orcs were there to be driven away by Imrahil along with the troll-men and Variags. If they had been routed by the sun, why would they return? The sun was shining the whole morning through. The fight lasted a long time. In any event Orcs were there as part of those forces that cut off Imrahil and were later driven away.

Your posting style is impolite, at best. If you think your continuous insults somehow enhance your contribution to these boards, then you are sadly mistaken. Facts like Orcs being described in the Morgul host are welcome contributions. Insults about my reasoning skills are not.

I am not insulting your reasoning skills. I think your arguments suggesting such things as the legions (foot) of Morgul consisted of only men because it does not say they were orcs there (even though it does not say they were men either) and when Gorbag and Co. is pointed out trying to suggest that they were the only Orcs at Morgul, are absurd (perhaps even intentionally?). You have many good arguments, some of which I even agree with. But I am finding such things deliberately provocative. I may be wrong on the deliberate part. But that is how I am beginning to see it.

We are agreed now, the Legion of Morgul has Orcs in it, and was very aggressive prior to the charge of the Rohirrim. Now let's look at how they fare post-dawn:
The legions of Morgul come from under the wall. This does not speak of any particular prowess on their part. Later they are driven into by the footmen of Gondor- not necessarily routing, but not showing any prowess either.

As the quote you posted said the fighting waxed furious. It also lasted a long time. The legions of Morgul did not flee the sun. Not even when driven against by the footmen of Gondor.

The matter stands- Men fighting for Mordor are described in several passages as regrouping and fighting reasonably well. The Orcs are not. The implication is that the sunlight has broken their fighting ability, else why the deference between men and orcs?

There is no such implication. The Orcs fled because they were taken by surprise. They did not flee the sun.
Do you think that if the sun had come out and they had not been attacked they would have fled?

No such difference exists between the men and orcs fighting for Isengard. This, along with the slow performance of Grishnakh's band and the numerous comments by characters that imply only hybrid orcs are sun tolerant, makes me think that Sauron's Orcs (who are non-hybrids) are not any more sun tolerant than any other Orcs who has been around since the first age. I am saying that Sauron's orcs are like other orcs in this respect. You are saying that they are different. It is up to you to come up with evidence that they are different. So far I have not seen anything compelling.

JRRT gives two reasons for the Mordor Orcs 'slowness' a 'plan', or 'being less quick and hardy'.
Neither of those says anything about the sun.
If the Mordor Soldier Orcs were just as effected by the sun as the Northerners then why were they not described as 'flagging in the sun'?
As a side note though we both think the Isengarders had some 'man' blood in them, it is not actually a proven assertion. Remember JRRT still treats it as a 'speculation' very late.

<snip of part addressed above>

 

[aragil]

Proposition

I think we're going in circles here. You seem confident in your argument, I am certainly confident in mine. In the mean time much MB space is being used with out much progress, and it appears that anyone else who might have input in the matter is staying away from the thread. How about this: we have a poll- were Sauron's great Soldier-Orcs more sun-resistant than their predecessors? We could have three options:
1)Sauron's soldier Orcs were as sun-tolerant as Isengard's.
2)Sauron's soldier Orcs were less sun-tolerant than the Isengarders, but more sun-tolerant than their predecessors. (I assume your position)
3)Sauron's soldier Orcs were no more sun-tolerant than their predecessors. (My position)

We could each build our case privately and then submit them to a moderator, who would post them both in the poll-thread simultaneously. The two of us would not be allowed to post in the poll-thread until the voting on the poll closed- say a week or two. Then we each post a single summary (10000 characters) stating what we agree with and disagree with of the points that other posters make. We then both abide by the decision of that poll for any future discussions on this thread. This would save us a whole lot of wrangling and space-hogging on this thread. It might even bring in some fresh view points on the matter. What do you think?